SummitPost.org

Also you didn't mention what ice screws you were using, but that's a major factor as well. The higher-end screws go in easier, and you also should make sure they are sharpened.

brandon wrote:You don't lead much real ice do you Brad. This is all terrible advice.

WI2 you're just standing there anyway, letting the tool dangle works just fine, and cf'ed and tangled into leashes to use two hands, come on!

My advice...

Go leashless.
Or use quick release or quick exit leashes.
Place screws low and in front of you. Off to the side is always hard to do.
Realize that the hardest thing about ice is stopping to place screws, and that you should be in a comfort zone where falling is out of the question. This frees you to just climb between the stances or rock gear and not worry about it.

Hey Brandon. I hadn't heard anything negative from you in a while but I'm glad your back.
To answer your question yes I do lead real ice but haven't done a great deal of it. If you don't like my advice that's fine but let's see what it was.

First, I suggested the poster try to develop good footwork at the start of his ice climbing career so he could take the weight off his arms. Ya, that's probably not a good idea so let's forget that one.

Next, I suggested the poster not try placing screws with a tool hanging from his wrist if, in fact, this was what he was doing. Some climbers prefer not to do this while others don't mind. It's a personal choice for the poster to make and he can take or leave the advice as he sees fit.

Finally, I suggested a method the poster could use that some novice climbers find helpful as it provides them with a little added security while allowing them to place screws with two hands if they're worried about dropping screws, are not that strong or trying to place a screw with their non-dominant hand. By the way, that little trick actually comes, not from me, but from Jeff Lowe.

So, let's look at your advice.

brandon wrote:Go leashless.

That doesn't really answer the poster's question about placing screws with leashed tools now does it.

brandon wrote:Or use quick release or quick exit leashes.

See I missed this one because I couldn't tell from the original post that the climber didn't have these already. Obviously you picked up on something that a less experienced climber such as myself missed.

brandon wrote:Place screws low and in front of you. Off to the side is always hard to do.

True but in the original post there wasn't any good ice in front of him. Maybe we should have suggested he turn and face the good ice.

brandon wrote:Realize that the hardest thing about ice is stopping to place screws, and that you should be in a comfort zone where falling is out of the question. This frees you to just climb between the stances or rock gear and not worry about it.

Sound advice.

Brad, relax.

Sorry to offend. You gave some crappy advice. I pointed it out.

My suggestions speak for themselves.

take the sling attached to your harness for clipping into belays, and clip that into the spike of one of your tools, that way you have a quick belay that can be put on and taken off very quickly. I haven't tried the spinner leashes yet but those could work the same way too, and you wouldn't even have to unclip!

More crappy advice.

Brandon, why don't you tell us how you really feel...

Well look, our original poster is out there crushing it on some alpine ice. Throwing down. Wants to know how to be more efficient, regarding leashes and placing screws.

All kinds of retarded advice like 'sawing out ledges', elbows thru leashes, attaching and unattaching daisy chains. All crap that adds tons of time, rather than saving any.

I stand behind my advice as definitive. But hey, everybody's an internet expert.

knoback wrote:

kiwiw wrote:take the sling attached to your harness for clipping into belays, and clip that into the spike of one of your tools, that way you have a quick belay that can be put on and taken off very quickly. I haven't tried the spinner leashes yet but those could work the same way too, and you wouldn't even have to unclip!

I'm seeing this more and more since the advent of tool tethers. In fact, I've seen people going back to using umbilicals, hanging from the clipped tool to place screws or take a rest. This is way slower (how long did it take Bugs McKeith to do the FA of Polar Circus this way?), but it is safer than clipping the tool as a back up piece of gear. Please don't do that. I know you're not really going to fall on it, but if you did, most of those clip points are not made to take a shock load. Neither is your body if you are clipped to it by a static sling. Not that you'll have to worry about that, because 9 times out of 10, the tool is going to blow out in that situation anyway. Even if you've taken that into account and you have clipped the tool into the rope and it does happen to hold, with rope stetch and extension from the draw, you will end up out of reach of your highest (marginal) piece of gear and sole means of upward progress. I have witnessed this last scenario, luckily at a crag where a top rope was available. I know alot of old timers who still clip the tool while they are placing a screw; it doesn't make them any safer either - in fact, quite the opposite.

^^^This iz korrket. Avoid doing this if at all possible.

One thing he left out is that, if you don't end up hanging below your now out-of-reach tool, it's possible to make the tool pop by falling on it. Nothing like having a Quark/Nomic/Viper/Cobra/etc. launching down at your head at the end of a fully-extended elastic tether. Fun!!

Both have happened to me, which is why I don't clip in my tethers anymore.

Alpinisto wrote:

knoback wrote:

kiwiw wrote:take the sling attached to your harness for clipping into belays, and clip that into the spike of one of your tools, that way you have a quick belay that can be put on and taken off very quickly. I haven't tried the spinner leashes yet but those could work the same way too, and you wouldn't even have to unclip!

I'm seeing this more and more since the advent of tool tethers. In fact, I've seen people going back to using umbilicals, hanging from the clipped tool to place screws or take a rest. This is way slower (how long did it take Bugs McKeith to do the FA of Polar Circus this way?), but it is safer than clipping the tool as a back up piece of gear. Please don't do that. I know you're not really going to fall on it, but if you did, most of those clip points are not made to take a shock load. Neither is your body if you are clipped to it by a static sling. Not that you'll have to worry about that, because 9 times out of 10, the tool is going to blow out in that situation anyway. Even if you've taken that into account and you have clipped the tool into the rope and it does happen to hold, with rope stetch and extension from the draw, you will end up out of reach of your highest (marginal) piece of gear and sole means of upward progress. I have witnessed this last scenario, luckily at a crag where a top rope was available. I know alot of old timers who still clip the tool while they are placing a screw; it doesn't make them any safer either - in fact, quite the opposite.

^^^This iz korrket. Avoid doing this if at all possible.

One thing he left out is that, if you don't end up hanging below your now out-of-reach tool, it's possible to make the tool pop by falling on it. Nothing like having a Quark/Nomic/Viper/Cobra/etc. launching down at your head at the end of a fully-extended elastic tether. Fun!!

Both have happened to me, which is why I don't clip in my tethers anymore.

Doesn't Will Gadd recommend to clip a tool in his book?

bird wrote:Doesn't Will Gadd recommend to clip a tool in his book?

Dunno. Will check when I get home tonight.

I ain't no Will Gadd on ice, though...more like Will Ferrell.

When I get pumped, my partner doesn't yell "Clip a tool!" up from the belay.

He yells, "Clip, Tool!!"

Alpinisto wrote:

bird wrote:Doesn't Will Gadd recommend to clip a tool in his book?

Dunno. Will check when I get home tonight.

I ain't no Will Gadd on ice, though...more like Will Ferrell.

When I get pumped, my partner doesn't yell "Clip a tool!" up from the belay.

He yells, "Clip, Tool!!"

Badump dum... "I'm here til Tuesday...Try the fish."

brandon wrote:Well look, our original poster is out there crushing it on some alpine ice. Throwing down. Wants to know how to be more efficient, regarding leashes and placing screws.

All kinds of retarded advice like 'sawing out ledges', elbows thru leashes, attaching and unattaching daisy chains. All crap that adds tons of time, rather than saving any.

I stand behind my advice as definitive. But hey, everybody's an internet expert.

Actually, he wanted advice about how to do it. While it's never too early to learn efficiency, I think his question was more about proficiency. Let's not overwhelm the guy with too much information and 'tude, if that's still possible.

I had a guide suggest to me the technique of clipping a draw to the spike of a well placed ax, and then clipping in the rope, while placing a screw (and then using the same draw to clip to the screw). I also read (I think) about this technique in one of Craig Luebben’s books. Doesn't mean it's right, so I am hoping to get some insight.

I agree with the comments about wasting time, but using the same draw you will ultimately clip to the screw wastes very little time (the time it takes to clip/unclip to/from the spike). So, if it provides some protection, why not?

I am not talking about hanging on the ax, just clipping the rope to it. Nor am I talking about using a static tether (agree that is not a good idea).

I see three possibilities:

(1) You don't fall, clip to the screw and move on. All you waste is the little bit of time I described above.

(2) You fall, not very far, and the ax holds. You have avoided the longer fall to the last piece of pro (more risk of injury). Granted, you might fall out of reach of the placed ax -- but if you fall to the next piece of pro, that ax will be a lot farther away.

(3) You fall, and the ax pops, and you fall to the next piece of pro, which holds (hopefully). Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down). In any event, your ax won't be lost since it's connected to the rope - you should be able to recover it.

What am I missing?

I had a guide suggest to me the technique of clipping a draw to the spike of a well placed ax, and then clipping in the rope, while placing a screw (and then using the same draw to clip to the screw). I also read (I think) about this technique in one of Craig Luebben’s books. Doesn't mean it's right, so I am hoping to get some insight.

I agree with the comments about wasting time, but using the same draw you will ultimately clip to the screw wastes very little time (the time it takes to clip/unclip to/from the spike). So, if it provides some protection, why not?

I am not talking about hanging on the ax, just clipping the rope to it. Nor am I talking about using a static tether (agree that is not a good idea).

I see three possibilities:

(1) You don't fall, clip to the screw and move on. All you waste is the little bit of time I described above.

(2) You fall, not very far, and the ax holds. You have avoided the longer fall to the last piece of pro (more risk of injury). Granted, you might fall out of reach of the placed ax -- but if you fall to the next piece of pro, that ax will be a lot farther away.

(3) You fall, and the ax pops, and you fall to the next piece of pro, which holds (hopefully). Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down). In any event, your ax won't be lost since it's connected to the rope - you should be able to recover it.

What am I missing?

kozman18 wrote:Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down).

And should follow the rope down to...