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Illicit use of EPO being huge in the cycling world, I'm suddenly struck that I've never really heard about it used for high altitude climbing.

I'm not a medical professional, nor am I an EPO user - I'm just a non-doping amateur athlete, and so my interest in such topics is limited to stuff I read and what I've seen. But from WHAT I know, it seems like EPO could be every bit as performance-enhancing for climbers as for cyclists, probably more so. And since climbers generally aren't racing to summits, perhaps they wouldn't be so compelled to overdo it and suffer the numerous complications of hyperviscosity.

What's the collective knowledge base? Has this been seen? Dirty secret on big peaks? Weekend climbers using it on commercial trips up big peaks? ETC

It seems that there would be a big performance boost just as in cycling. Maybe more so in high altitude situations. Think about some of the speed accents being made on high peaks.

I think Steve House and Scott Johnson address EPO in their book. From what I've not read, it sounds like dehydration is a potential, and serious, consequence.

albanberg wrote:It seems that there would be a big performance boost just as in cycling. Maybe more so in high altitude situations. Think about some of the speed accents being made on high peaks.

Actually, yea.. now that I think about it. Steck? I'm fast in the mountains, really fast... but that guy- I've wondered how the crap he does it. Hmm.....

ExcitableBoy wrote:I think Steve House and Scott Johnson address EPO in their book. From what I've not read, it sounds like dehydration is a potential, and serious, consequence.

I haven't read Steve House's book yet, but you are spot on. The addition of dehydration at altitude increases the risk of blood clots which is unacceptable IMO.

Bad idea.

Steck does a 2.15 marathon, that`s how you do it...

And why not use cocaine? Might be more efficient on long days?

Stefan wrote:Steck does a 2.15 marathon, that`s how you do it...

And why not use cocaine? Might be more efficient on long days?

EPO helps with running, too.

Cocaine is a stimulant, it just puts a temporary, and expensive, pep in your step. EPO is like steroids for your blood- it actually allows you grow more hemoglobin, allowing your blood to deliver more oxygen. It actually makes you stronger. There's no crash once the drug wears off- in fact, you don't even really benefit from the effects of the drug until the drug has run it's course. You then get to play with a significantly enhanced HCT until you don't need the additional oxygen capacity anymore. So for as long as you're at altitude, or racing your bike, or running, you maintain the benefit. After a few days of eating a sleeping, back at sea-level (or the couch, or whatever), your HCT will ebb naturally.

Average lifespan for red blood cells is 120 days, when they are removed from circulation mostly in the spleen, so this effect is not something you can simply "turn off" by discontinuing its use.

Woodie Hopper wrote:Average lifespan for red blood cells is 120 days, when they are removed from circulation mostly in the spleen, so this effect is not something you can simply "turn off" by discontinuing its use.

The body cannibalizes unneeded red blood cells, just like it does unneeded muscle mass. It might not be a switch that you can just turn off and turn on, but if you're walking around with a significantly higher HCT than your body needs, it's not going to stay that way for long. Otherwise, altitude acclimatization would also last for 120 days... and it definitely doesn't.

Ben Beckerich wrote:The body cannibalizes unneeded red blood cells, just like it does unneeded muscle mass. It might not be a switch that you can just turn off and turn on, but if you're walking around with a significantly higher HCT than your body needs, it's not going to stay that way for long. Otherwise, altitude acclimatization would also last for 120 days... and it definitely doesn't.

I think it's a mistake to equate red blood cell mass with altitude acclimatization as there are multiple physiological changes involved. Once acclimatized it seems plausible that EPO would improve performance at altitude, unless acclimatized individuals already have similar HCT levels.

Any recent studies on this? I recall seeing only one that compared VO2 max between EPO and placebo at altitude, but that was a while ago.

If you're looking for an easier way to get to the top, you can always hire a helicopter.

splattski wrote:If you're looking for an easier way to get to the top, you can always hire a helicopter.

Is that a challenge? I accept, and submit to blood test.

Ben Beckerich wrote:

Woodie Hopper wrote:Average lifespan for red blood cells is 120 days, when they are removed from circulation mostly in the spleen, so this effect is not something you can simply "turn off" by discontinuing its use.

The body cannibalizes unneeded red blood cells, just like it does unneeded muscle mass. It might not be a switch that you can just turn off and turn on, but if you're walking around with a significantly higher HCT than your body needs, it's not going to stay that way for long. Otherwise, altitude acclimatization would also last for 120 days... and it definitely doesn't.

I think this topic makes for an interesting "what if" discussion, but I'm afraid what you said above just isn't true. The body has no mechanism for cannibalizing "unneeded RBCs" other than removing them after they become damaged. The lifespan of 120 days is due to the average amount of time it takes for the immune system to recognize damaged RBC membranes and eat them in lay terms. If you know of a natural method whereby excess RBCs are removed by a faster process in the body, I'd like review your source.

Taking EPO at altitude would be very dangerous. EPO thickens the blood, and altitude does as well. You would be at huge risk for heart attack and stroke.

Andrew Rankine wrote:Taking EPO at altitude would be very dangerous. EPO thickens the blood, and altitude does as well. You would be at huge risk for heart attack and stroke.

You don't take it at altitude- you take EPO days or weeks before you need the extra blood, build up an extra thick HCT, then, long after the drug is gone and the mechanism has run it's course, you party with all the extra blood. Why does your body produce extra hemoglobin at altitude? Because it needs it. If you already have it, it doesn't seem to me like your body is just gonna pump out a bunch of extra red blood cells anyway just because you've gone up. I'm sure the creation of red blood cells is directly tied to a need for more oxygen.

Obviously there'd be a balance that would need to be had- we know it's possible to artificially jack the HCT too high. Pro cyclists have died from overdoing it with both EPO and "clean doping" (transfusing their own pre-drawn blood back into their bodies). Heart failure, embolism, stoke, sepsis... Chose your fate. This is what'll happen when a guy tries to do this shit himself in a closet.