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Can you get permanent brain damage due to altitude exposure? just curious if it was completely temporary or if it is cumulative permanent damage...etc. anyone read anything on this?

A lot of people think Messner DOES have brain damage from hypoxia.

tigerlilly wrote:Can you get permanent brain damage due to altitude exposure? just curious if it was completely temporary or if it is cumulative permanent damage...etc. anyone read anything on this?

your brain is a muscle. like any other muscles, the only way to make it stronger is by destroying it first. so yes, extended stay at altitude causes brain damage but it is only temporary because your brain will grow back bigger and stronger. this is why i stop wearing helmets on loose Sierra chutes when hiking in a big group and run at 20,000ft on a regular basis.

Yeah, he does crazy things! I think it is possible, but not likely though.

Actually, it is likely. Or to be more accurate, change "likely" to "certain".

It is known that Messner suffered brain damage from climbing the 8000 meter peaks. He even says so in his own writings.

I've been tracking this research for some time, actually. It appears the general consensus is that high altitude exposure can cause permanent functional deficits (i.e. slower mental reaction times, decreased working memory). Supplemental oxygen use may diminish the harm. It appears that the damage is sustained in the first few trips to high altitude. One in particular I remember was published in the Neuropsychology Review and it basically found that guides with significant high altitude experience had lower baseline cognitive abilities than their client counterparts (meaning on average they performed more poorly on thinking tasks), but their post-expedition measurement showed little or no cognitive decline (they didn't get worse after the expedition). The clients, on the other hand, had a larger average cognitive decline between their pre-expedition baseline measurement and their post-expedition measurement (they performed worse on the thinking tasks after the expedition). The cognitive declines were lower/non-existent in those individuals who used supplemental oxygen.

There has also been some structural MRI research that's shown some lesions (damage) in the sensory-motor cortex and other regions.

Thomas Hornbein (the famous mountaineer who made the first ascent of the West Ridge of Everest with Willi Unsoeld) has been the guiding researcher in high altitude physiology, and he has several well written reviews of the subject. If you'd like more information, I can try to hook you up.

Mike

For anyone interested in a little scientific reading on the topic.
http://www.amjmed.com/article/PIIS0002934305006741/fulltext

Makes acclimatization sound like a good plan.

I think there is no doubt that time spent at altitude does result in brain damage. So does drinking alcohol. With alcohol, the answer seems to be don't do too much of it. Maybe the same is true of time spent at altitude.

So, yes, I'm very curious about this. Any info is appreciated.

I'm curious if the damage is specific to regions in the brain, or all over. Will the damage start in the inner core of the brain and work outwards (or vice versa).

Are there consistant regions that are damaged first?

What about hearing? language? motor skills?

Also, what are the brain lesions? are they scars?

tigerlilly wrote:
What about hearing? language? motor skills?

Huh? What did you say?

If you read the cited papers, you get the impression that the damage is general over the cerebrum... manifest as a shrinkage and size change in the Virchow-Robins spaces. Motor skills could not be greatly compromised, else the guides (in another study) wouldn't be able to guide.

"Lesions" are like scar tissue, but not made of collagen. The brain partly dies, and is replaced with a glial scar.

In the study cited in another thread, guides had lowered cognitive skills relative to the clients. However, there is the assumption that the guides started off with comparable cognitive skills; given that the clients are often professional people, that assumption may not be correct.

Here's one of the papers Hornbein has written on the subject.

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/204/18/3129.pdf

A quick google search should help explain any unfamiliar terms

Bear in mind that the effects on Everest are probably much greater than those on Denali. The Everest base camp is higher than the Denali high camp (OK, there is a latitude correction).

Ahhh I can see the wheels turning in tigerlillys head as she plans to do the 8000 meter peaks with no oxygen! Good for you!

I'm just worried about porters - I'm wondering if they ever get literature or education.

jmh5331 wrote:it basically found that guides with significant high altitude experience had lower baseline cognitive abilities than their client counterparts (meaning on average they performed more poorly on thinking tasks)

Wouldn't that be beneficial in climbing?