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butitsadryheat wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:I was heading up a steep canyon in Red Rock outside Las Vegas. Above were areas used by trad climbers.

My friends were joking because I had lunged and hit a rock, knocking myself out, on the same route 1 year before. That time I had fallen, unconscious, about 25' and landed on the top of a waterfall.

Suddenly I slipped on a banana peel that had been thrown down from the rock climbing area above. I can't imagine a weirder place to slip on a banana peel. Probably 10 people go through that canyon a year, at most. Probably the climbers thought, "well, it's biodegradable!"

I'm not hiking any high points with you. Prolly attract lightning.

That was the first time I ever heard of someone actually slipping on a banana peel. You always see it in cartoons, but never in real life. I guess we have an exception!

Guyzo wrote:Well I guess "Lady Bird Johnson"- Did get the American people to look at our beautiful nation and to clean up our act.

To bad other cultures can't see this.

As you point out, people have to be trained. And the training generally doesn't take hold until there is a large and stable middle class. Wealth comes first. Then the people start demanding a clean environment, political freedom, etc. It has already happened, without Western brow-beating, in nations such as South Korea, Taiwan, etc.

Americans who look down their noses at the environmental records of developing nations would do well to remember that the United States didn't start cleaning up its act until 100 years into its industrial revolution.

redneck wrote:

Guyzo wrote:Well I guess "Lady Bird Johnson"- Did get the American people to look at our beautiful nation and to clean up our act.

To bad other cultures can't see this.

As you point out, people have to be trained. And the training generally doesn't take hold until there is a large and stable middle class. Wealth comes first. Then the people start demanding a clean environment, political freedom, etc. It has already happened, without Western brow-beating, in nations such as South Korea, Taiwan, etc.

Americans who look down their noses at the environmental records of developing nations would do well to remember that the United States didn't start cleaning up its act until 100 years into its industrial revolution.

Very true, and well-put, Redneck.

every few years I find mylar balloons in some pretty remote places. Some interesting places I've found them: the Dusy Basin (Sierra Nevada Mtns, just west of the Palisade Crest), the Pinto Basin (eastern side of Joshua Tree NP), and below Baker Peak in Great Basin NP (a really remote area in Nevada).

Log onto some bicycling websites if you want to see debates about tossing trash by the roadside. Seems a lot of road riders have no problems tossing anything they can rationalize as 'biodegradable' while they're pedaling, be it a fruit core/peel, a piece of paper that says 'biodegradable' on it, or plastic that says 'made with biodegradable corn starch.'

ncst wrote:That's what I've often thought while sitting on a local bus on the way to a mountain, (most often in non-western countries). Locals would buy a bottle of coke (vendors come sell it on the bus), and when it's empty, it's thrown out of the window, polluting the beautiful areas you're driving through.
...
I was wondering how you react to such situations? Thanks

I felt that way before. But try this experiment next time you're out there. Sit on the bus holding your trash until you get off the bus and find a trash can. Now that you feel responsible and civilized, sit next to the trash can and wait for someone to come along and empty it. Follow the trash guy and see where your trash ends up.

You might see 10 people come rummage through the can looking for 'valuables' like metal cans. Then if anyone ever comes and actually empties it, he will probably just take it to the edge of town and dump it by the road. Occasionally, the trashpile will get lit, especially if it blocks traffic. So if you toss the trash out the bus window, you are actually being efficient

When I think really hard, I'm not sure why putting trash in a big hole is any better than leaving it in view. I start to feel that it doesn't matter where you hide your trash, but only how much you make.

I hate Orange Peals, Banana Peals, Rope ends, Tape, Cig Butts and all manner of trash that I find at climbing spots......

some of the TRIBE are messy people.


Red Neck...... I think you get it.

how can we expect folks who are living on the edge of survival, pay to make their "footprint" smaller?

redneck wrote:

Guyzo wrote:Well I guess "Lady Bird Johnson"- Did get the American people to look at our beautiful nation and to clean up our act.

To bad other cultures can't see this.

As you point out, people have to be trained. And the training generally doesn't take hold until there is a large and stable middle class. Wealth comes first. Then the people start demanding a clean environment, political freedom, etc. It has already happened, without Western brow-beating, in nations such as South Korea, Taiwan, etc.

Americans who look down their noses at the environmental records of developing nations would do well to remember that the United States didn't start cleaning up its act until 100 years into its industrial revolution.

I'm afraid you're right guyzo and redneck. So then that would mean that for a big part of the world it will take another couple of generations. By then it might be too late!

So; I'll still react and say something, or call it 'educate others' when I see people dumping their garbage, no matter the culture or country. If not, I'd feel like letting Mother Nature down;

I think many people are afraid to tell a stranger not to do something, like polluting.

The Kern River Canyon, north of Lake Isabella in the southern Sierra is just beautiful. All winter, half the year, it is deserted despite it's moderate climate. But there are three big summer holidays: Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor day, when the canyon is overrun by people from from the Central Valley escaping the heat.

It is amazing to me the level to which the place gets trashed then. I've seen people toss entire bags of trash out of the back of their truck, or just leave bags in improvised campsites along the river. I cannot believe there are humans who are so stupid. When I see that behavior I think it's time to "cull the herd."

What is also amazing is that a combination of Forest Service personnel, volunteers, and people who scour for recyclables actually get this mess cleaned up every time (so far.)

butitsadryheat wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:I was heading up a steep canyon in Red Rock outside Las Vegas. Above were areas used by trad climbers.

My friends were joking because I had lunged and hit a rock, knocking myself out, on the same route 1 year before. That time I had fallen, unconscious, about 25' and landed on the top of a waterfall.

Suddenly I slipped on a banana peel that had been thrown down from the rock climbing area above. I can't imagine a weirder place to slip on a banana peel. Probably 10 people go through that canyon a year, at most. Probably the climbers thought, "well, it's biodegradable!"

I'm not hiking any high points with you. Prolly attract lightning.

Ask him about the time he did the somersault on Edgar Peak.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Poor people can't afford to pay attention and there isn't anything we can do about it short term.

Education is key, as always.

DMT

Here in Appalachia we venture into a lot of very poor areas for whitewater kayaking. They hillbillys use the rivers to dump their garbage. There is a famous comic of a bunch of Appalachain hillbillys holding some kayakers with a shotgun. The kayakers have their hands in the air saying,"Oh, I agree! The river is a WONDERFUL place to dump your garbage!"

The poor people here in Appalachia don't care about environmental issues. Mountains are meant to be stripped for jobs. Trees are meant to be cut down for money. River are meant for dumping sewage and garbage. The only people in Appalachia who care about the environment are immigrants like me who moved here to escape the cities. We're all viewed as "outsiders" who have no business interferring with local jobs and money.

We are many, many generations away from educating these hillbillys.

butitsadryheat wrote:

ksolem wrote:The Kern River Canyon, north of Lake Isabella in the southern Sierra is just beautiful. All winter, half the year, it is deserted despite it's moderate climate. But there are three big summer holidays: Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor day, when the canyon is overrun by people from from the Central Valley escaping the heat.

I have been told that they are mostly from Southern California, not the Central Valley (and it seems every time someone drowns in the Kern it is somebody from LA). We don't always run from the heat, we're more used to it.
Most of the okies, white trash, and other undesirables from here usually trash Lake Buena Vista instead. It takes less time and gas to get there

Could be you are right. I avoid the place like the plague then, although I love it during the winter. I based my comment on a combination of "profiling" and input from friends who live in the area there. I certainly don't know firsthand though.

cp0915 wrote:Ask him about the time he did the somersault on Edgar Peak.

It was more of a flip, since I didn't touch the ground. Anyway, I blame sport climbers.

Back in the 1970s I was invited onto an Indian reservation in New Mexico and given permission to hike to the top of a "sacred peak" on the reservation. "White men" were not usually permitted on the "sacred mountain."

The trail to the top of the "sacred mountain" was so badly lilttered with beer cans from the Indians that we spent the day packing out dozens of trash bags full of beer cans instead of hiking.

The Indians never did understand why we were so concerned about packing out the garbage.

I live a block away from 2 famous 'rails to trails' systems in the metro Chicago area (The Prairie Path and The Great Western Trail, which cover about 75 miles and connect to still other trails). You would think trail users in such a nature starved area would be more environmentally aware than others. But such is not the case.

There are three classes of garbage found every day along the trail (I know because I regularly pick it up while I take walks):

- Alcohol
- Fast Food
- Water Bottles

I kind of expect the first two because a lot of kids and teens use the trail. But the water bottle litter really annoys me. This has to be generated by adults who use the trail for their health (walking, jogging and biking) but can't be bothered to pitch their water bottle into the trash.