SummitPost.org

http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html

With pictures. Should answer your question.

HandjamMasterC wrote:
I know someone who's rappel ropes came untied under load with the EDK and they only survived through shear luck.

I used to use the double fisherman knot. Now I use a figure eight follow through.

I thought the fig. 8 follow through was even more prone to rolling than the EDK. please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've heard that before...

kiwiw wrote:I thought the fig. 8 follow through was even more prone to rolling than the EDK. please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've heard that before...

A figure-8 tied with tails together is the one that is prone to rolling:


The figure-8 follow-through (rethreaded figure-8, figure-8 bend, Flemish bend) is considered safe:


http://www.chockstone.org/TechTIps/JoinRopes.htm

http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8join/index.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_bend

I weigh enough to test any knot on rappel, and I prefer the EDK. I have done many many rappels with it, usually with backup overhands on the tails, but sometimes without, depending on rope-pull issues. The EDK alone (without backup knots) is safe, provided the knot is tied tight with sufficient tails. I feel comfortable with tails of at least 18 inches (longer than shown in this EDK example):

F_Rhoderick wrote:Overhand knot with long (2-3') tails.

And a second OFig 8K for assurance/back up.

Still requires less rope than all the rest.

Has worked for me for well over 35 years.

NeeDlzdos wrote:http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html

With pictures. Should answer your question.

Nee... good link, confirms everything I know and think.



EKD is the best. I tie one, than tie another one in the opposite direction and snug it right down next to the first one. It will not come untied or roll.


Getting your rope stuck is the most dangerous situation you will ever encounter.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:But I don't clove into anchors with a single knots for belays like many of our Euro-cousins do. THAT is a Euro Death Knot haha.

DMT

How so? If the rope fails, you're both dead anyway...

Is that why it's always recommended to put a personal anchor as well, in case the rope fails?

And on that note, since PA's are made of static material, what should I use instead? If a 2-foot fall can break one, and you are not connected to the rope when setting it up for rappel, what do you do? Use one of your spare (also static) slings?

-Mark

Mark Straub wrote:PA's are made of static material

Metolius and some other personal anchor thingies are made of dyneema / nylon, which is more static. Sterling makes a similar product -- the chain reactor -- but made of nylon, which in theory is more dynamic. I've been using one of these this season.

Overhand knot with arm length tails perfectly dressed and each (4 of em) leg individualy tightened at least twice, will not require back up knot, and will not roll, but if you are lazy and do not follow the above directions, the knot will roll once and become so tight you will probably have to cut it to get it apart!
EDK is the only knot I will rap on. If someone else ties it, I inspect it carefuly and retighten each leg myself!

I guess there's an exception to every rule. We also use the EDK, but it actually did get stuck on a rappel last summer...couldn't get it down and had to cut the rope.

Still use the EDK, though.

Kano...

You are correct, only one tie in point, with a clove hitch.... = EDK....

I always use a PA ( some sort of sling deal ) and the rope. That is two points, I do tie a clove hitch with the rope cause you can adjust the length and the PA is on a locking biner.

Unless I am rappelling, than I am fond of going with just one PA, keep it simple. But that is just me.

I read through most of these two nights ago and I thought it would be interesting to see how "Freedom of the Hills" weighs in on this topic. So this morning I grabbed my FOTH before I left the house on my way to work. (By the way I was taught to always use a double-fisherman for joining two ropes for rappelling.)

In the FOTH book, the authors don't refer to it as the "Euro Death Knot" but the 7th edition, page 141 says "The double overhand knot is useful as a rappel knot in icey conditions or for rappels where the rope could catch when the rope is retrieved".

Freedom of the Hills also says "The double fisherman's knot is a very secure knot for tying the ends of two ropes together for a rappel. It is preferred over two rewoven figure eights because it is less bulky and tends to hang up less often when the rope is pulled down after a rappel".

In summary:
Double overhand = useful
Double Fisherman = very secure
Two Rewoven Figure Eights = Bulky and tends to hang-up.

RickF wrote:In the FOTH book, the authors don't refer to it as the "Euro Death Knot" but the 7th edition, page 141 says "The double overhand knot is useful as a rappel knot in icey conditions or for rappels where the rope could catch when the rope is retrieved".

Nice catch RickF.
So who coined the EDK name? And why? Did someone die?

I do a lot of canyoneering and rappelling is a core part of that activity. To tie two ropes together I've used the EDK for decades with a foot of tail or so. To assure the skeptical partner, I sometimes tie two knots, one on top of the other. That's like both belt and suspenders. Needless to say, if you tie two ropes together to rappel you best be skilled at passing a knot.