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This thread is now getting kind a stupid.

Who the fk cares what they do with your body after you die.... yur dead for God's sake.

The Chief wrote:Who the fk cares what they do with your body after you die.... yur dead for God's sake.

I don't think I really care too much either. Cremating sounds like a good solution.

The Chief wrote
"Me, I told my Wife to take me up into the High Hills, chop me up and have the Buzzards eat me. "

John Prine wrote
Please don't bury me
Down in that cold cold ground
No, I'd druther have 'em cut me up
And pass me all around
Throw my brain in a hurricane
And the blind can have my eyes
And the deaf can take both of my ears
If they don't mind the size
Give my stomach to Milwaukee
If they run out of beer
Put my socks in a cedar box
Just get 'em out of here
Venus de Milo can have my arms
Look out! I've got your nose
Sell my heart to the junkman
And give my love to Rose

dynamokiev98 wrote:

The Chief wrote:

dynamokiev98 wrote:AS I HEARD..if you need a helicopter rescue from the mountains you will be billed for 10,000$. When you sign up to be a member of American Alpine Club they will cover you for half of that if you need one..http://www.americanalpineclub.org/whyjoin
This was told to me by a friend...maybe someone with more knowledge on this issue can comment? And is it a good idea to join this club?

IN or OUT of CONUS?

Source if IN CONUS please.

All I care is continental US. Is CONUS=continental US?
I AM ASKING: Is it true that a climber needs to pay for helicopter rescue if he broke his leg for example and can't get down?
American Alpine Club is obviously in US and they offer 5000$ compensation coverage for helicopter rescue (which is supposedly 1/2 of what you need to pay). IF rescue is FREE, WHY does AAC include this in their members benefits? Just to attract people?

I can't answer the second part of your question, and I'm not even sure I'm right here, but, No, I don't think you have to pay for a helo rescue if you break a leg. . .
I don't think there is any mention of lost/hurt climbers on Hood having to pay for rescue, much to the irritation of many irate taxpayers( Btw, I'm not one of those who bitch and moan every time there's a rescue, and call for such and such legislation against climbers, etc.).
Someone will give the definitive answer, though I think it's already been answered.

dynamokiev98 wrote:All I care is continental US. Is CONUS=continental US?
I AM ASKING: Is it true that a climber needs to pay for helicopter rescue if he broke his leg for example and can't get down?
American Alpine Club is obviously in US and they offer 5000$ compensation coverage for helicopter rescue (which is supposedly 1/2 of what you need to pay). IF rescue is FREE, WHY does AAC include this in their members benefits? Just to attract people?

I have never heard of a victim paying for rescue due to injury stemming from a valid accident of no malicious fault of their own.

Now, if the incident stems from a malicious activity, then the ensuing investigation will determine if it is necessary to go after the victim for restitution of expenses incurred in the process of the SAR OP. This has in fact occurred in the Valley on different occasions when the individuals that required rescue, did in fact violate local protocols and put themselves and the SAR Team in danger due to their actions.

There's only one way to keep your family from asking authorities to recover your body: LIVING WILL

If you want your body left in situ, make it clear to your family and write it down in your living will.

dynamokiev98 wrote:AS I HEARD..if you need a helicopter rescue from the mountains you will be billed for 10,000$. When you sign up to be a member of American Alpine Club they will cover you for half of that if you need one..http://www.americanalpineclub.org/whyjoin
This was told to me by a friend...maybe someone with more knowledge on this issue can comment? And is it a good idea to join this club?

Short answer; it depends. After taking a nasty fall and breaking too many ribs to get out on my own, SAR made the determination (With my blessing) that a helo ride out was my best option. There happened to be an air ambulance in the area who was headed back to their home base after another transport who diverted and yanked my fat ass off the mountain. They charged me $10,000 for their efforts and the eight minute flight out. My health insurance ultimately covered that expense.

Had a law enforcement or military helicopter extracted me there most likely would have been no charge because as a general rule public agencies do not charge for search & rescue in CO. As of late there have been some exceptions to that as some county sheriffs have tried to charge victims for their rescue. I'm not sure if they have been able to collect however.

I had a COSAR card so I am assuming that the two SARs involved applied for expense reimbursement.

Sidebar: I'm not sure how it works in other states but Colorado has a system in place where outdoor enthusiasts can purchase for a very nominal fee a COSAR (Colorado Search & Rescue) Card. Should they then need the services of a SAR the units involved can apply for reimbursement of some of the costs associated with the rescue. Many people mistakenly believe that a COSAR card is SAR insurance. It is not, it's just a way for the various SAR units to cover some of their expenses.

EDIT: And apologies to the OP for the thread drift.

FortMental wrote:

The Chief wrote:I have never heard of a victim paying for rescue due to injury stemming from a valid accident of no malicious fault of their own.

Eagle Scout Fined $25,000 for Rescue

Nobody remembers the 17 yr. old kid who sprained his ankle on Mt. Washington? The bogus helicopter BS, the lost rescuers? I know, I know, it didn't happen in California and it didn't involve the Navy, so it probably doesn't count.

Did he pay?

FortMental wrote:

The Chief wrote:I have never heard of a victim paying for rescue due to injury stemming from a valid accident of no malicious fault of their own.

Eagle Scout Fined $25,000 for Rescue

Nobody remembers the 17 yr. old kid who sprained his ankle on Mt. Washington? The bogus helicopter BS, the lost rescuers? I know, I know, it didn't happen in California and it didn't involve the Navy, so it probably doesn't count.

RTROTP posted below in larger lettering so you can, Please.... or did you deem it unnecessary?

Now here is the REST OF THE STORY!


" An Eagle Scout injured on Mt. Washington in New Hampshire has one month to pay for his rescue. We've reported before on New Hampshire's policy of charging for search-rescue-operations born out of negligence, and survival expert Steve Howe at The Pulse covered the story of injured Eagle Scout Scott Mason's rescue from Mount Washington in difficult spring-snow conditions.

Now, those two stories are converging: Mason has one month to pay the full cost of his $25,000 rescue, after being deemed 'negligent.' Despite surviving for three days in tough conditions with a busted ankle, The New Hampshire Fish and Game Department ruled that ultimately, he ventured into the wild unprepared for his ambitious itinerary."

The Chief wrote:
I have never heard of a victim paying for rescue due to injury stemming from a valid accident of no malicious fault of their own.

Now, if the incident stems from a malicious activity, then the ensuing investigation will determine if it is necessary to go after the victim for restitution of expenses incurred in the process of the SAR OP. This has in fact occurred in the Valley on different occasions when the individuals that required rescue, did in fact violate local protocols and put themselves and the SAR Team in danger due to their actions.

I like the New Zealand system. If you get into trouble hiking or mountaineering, you contact the emergency services (ambulance, police, fire brigade) on a single phone number. (Even if the phone has an expired simcard or the phone is "locked" the emergency call will still operate)

In NZ, as I understand it, the police decide whether a helicopter rescue is warranted. If they make that decision, the rescue will not be charged to the climber. Not one cent.

However, if YOU call the rescue chopper in yourself (ie circumventing the emergency services) then you will pay the full cost of the chopper rescue.

I think that's reasonable.

PellucidWombat wrote:In a nutshell, here are the questions that I'm pondering for a worst case 'what if' scenario. I'll rant some more about them below.

1. What are the legal ramifications for this, both for those left behind, and for the agencies that operate in the area?

2. Could this be done in the lower 48 states if it were contextually appropriate and specified a priori to family or a climbing partner?

3. How about just being left on the mountain until a recovery on foot could be achieved?

4. How could such wishes be adequately recorded such that the wishes are respected by the local authorities?

I would especially be interested on hearing thoughts from those involved with SAR. During the Shasta aftermath I learned a lot about SAR vs. recoveries and what can be said to the family and the press, and somewhat as to certain situations where people who died were left on Mt. Shasta, so I know these questions may be affected by bureaucratic policies as well.

1) I hate to be blunt, but leaving rotting corpses around the wilderness is not a good option for many reasons, just one of which is the simple fact that the more trafficked the area, the more unpleasant is the prospect of encountering the recently deceased, if you know what I mean. Usually of course, the coroner (I forget what the US equivalent of that is) will be interested in determining the actual cause of death.

2) "The lower 48 states" Seems to imply that the question virtually answers itself (unless I've missed the point). The question seems to ackowledge that rescuers (or teams seeking to recover human remains) should not go to extremes of endeavour such as to place more lives in danger in the attempt to recover human remains. As to whether they should do so in the hope of rescuing people who are known to still be alive, well, that's a question that can only be answered by those willing to attempt the rescue, in my humble opinion

3) See 1 and 2

4) In n a genuinely adventurous undertaking, I suppose you could leave your wishes at the point of departure into the "wilderness" (For example the DOC in New Zealand) I somehow doubt they would take too much notice of you wishes, however. They would be more interested in fulfilling their legal obligations under various acts of parliament.

Realistically, the questions asked seem to be more pertinent in genuinely remote parts of the world wher you know you are going beyond where any kind of rescue/diplomatic/legal intervention is possible. These places are probably worth seeking out on this shrinking planet.

The Chief wrote:Now here is the REST OF THE STORY!

New Hampshire ultimately backed off on this one. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/699918-196/state-wont-charge-teen-25000-for-white.html

Created a real shitstorm. In backing off, NH never admitted that it was a mistake (at least in this instance) to levy a fine. The NH attorney general just used it as a teaching moment: “We hope that the publicity about his experience has served as an important teaching moment to others considering hiking in the White Mountains, so they might know that the dangers and risks of doing so should never be underestimated.”

kozman18 wrote:

The Chief wrote:Now here is the REST OF THE STORY!

New Hampshire ultimately backed off on this one. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/699918-196/state-wont-charge-teen-25000-for-white.html

Created a real shitstorm. In backing off, NH never admitted that it was a mistake (at least in this instance) to levy a fine. The NH attorney general just used it as a teaching moment: “We hope that the publicity about his experience has served as an important teaching moment to others considering hiking in the White Mountains, so they might know that the dangers and risks of doing so should never be underestimated.”

Exactly and thank you.

Thus this entire issue was a moot point to start with.

Ultimately, he was not charged for the rescue.

Luciano136 wrote:

The Chief wrote:Who the fk cares what they do with your body after you die.... yur dead for God's sake.

I don't think I really care too much either. Cremating sounds like a good solution.

Other interesting options that benefit science:

Body Farm donation program
Institute for Plastination donation program (the Body Worlds org)

There was a similar episode in the White Mountains years ago (’82) -- before NH adopted any legislation (that I know) of regarding financial responsibility for SARs. It involved Hugh Herr, and a climbing companion, who completed an ice climb in the Huntington Ravine and decided to continue on to the summit of Mt. Washington in deteriorating weather. They got disoriented, and descended down the wrong side of the mountain into the Great Gulf -- the same area (I believe) where Scott Mason got stuck (the kid who was initially fined $25K). Herr was trapped for several days by deep snow and ended up falling into moving water (like Mason). Unlike Mason, Herr was unequipped -- he had left his gear (including, I think, a compass) at the base of the ice climb in order to go light. And, unlike Mason, Herr faced sub-zero temperatures (it was January, Mason was hiking in July). Herr lost both of his legs to frostbite (he remained a climber -- and became fairly famous as a developer of prostheses).

I revive this old story for contrast (and hope that its ties in some relevant respect to the original post) because Albert Dow, a member of the local MRS, died trying to rescue Herr. He was killed in an avalanche (see below). There was a lot of ill-will directed towards Herr -- some of the locals felt that trying to climb Washington in January without survival gear, and in bad weather, was a foolish decision that ultimately cost Dow his life. But from what I’ve read many who knew Dow realized that he was doing something he chose/loved to do -- something he was dedicated to. The degree of negligence, foolishness or stupidity of the lost hiker/climber didn’t matter to him -- he would have kept looking, and risking his neck, while there was still hope that Herr was alive. From some of the posts here, it seems that this is a common commitment made by SAR people.

But, once the situation shifts from rescue to a recovery, I don’t see why SAR personnel should, or would want to, unduly risk their lives. Yes, a victim’s family may want closure, but these people have families too. If a recovery is possible without such risk it should be conducted when conditions are safest (i.e. when the weather clears, avalanche danger subsides, etc.). Speed becomes a secondary concern. If a recovery requires undue risk then really what’s the point? Yeah, I know it begs the question of “what’s undue risk?” -- I guess that’s a subjective determination that has to be made, case-by-case. I would not want my body recovered if it meant someone else had to risk their life to do so.

Finally, and this is off-point (sorry for the hijack), I think NH’s law is dangerous because the standard for financial responsibility for a SAR is “negligence.” A very low standard that with the benefit of hindsight can apply to almost any situation. Mason is a good example -- he was praised by state officials for his survival skills and in the same breath chastised for being “negligent” in continuing his hike when he twisted his ankle. Still shaking my head on that one -- if he had the skills to survive a few nights out (in July), how could he be negligent in continuing? Hindsight, that’s how -- guess he should have predicted that deep snow and swollen streams would block his escape for a few days. NH needs to rethink this, and adopt a higher standard of culpability (a minimum of gross negligence or recklessness).

Sorry for the long post.

There’s a rescue cache at the base of Huntington Ravine dedicated to Dow who sounds like a guy worth remembering:
NAME: Albert Dow
AGE: 28
RESIDENCE: Tuftonboro, NH
DATE: January 25, 1982
CAUSE OF DEATH: Avalanche
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: Albert Dow, a member of the volunteer Mountain Rescue Service, participated as a member of the search party that set out to locate two missing climbers, Hugh Herr and Jeff Batzer. On January 23, Herr and Batzer had left Harvard Hut to climb Odell Gully in Huntington Ravine. When they failed to return that evening, the caretaker of the Hut notified the authorities that the two were missing. Cold and windy conditions prevailed: temperatures on the summit on the 23rd registered 1 degree F, with winds of 56 to 69 mph. Blowing snow limited visibility severely. On the 24th and 25th the weather deteriorated with colder temperatures and higher winds, hampering search efforts. Avalanche warnings had been posted by the U.S. Forest Service for many areas around Mount Washington. Despite the inhospitable conditions, the searchers persisted in hopes of locating the lost climbers alive. On the 25th, Dow and another MRS team member, Mike Hartrick, carefully threaded their way down near the Lion Head Trail, striving to avoid avalanche prone slopes, after finding no trace of the climbers. Well below treeline, an avalanche swept over them. Hartrick managed to clear an air hole and radio for help. Dow was found two hours later under three feet of snow. He had not survived.