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And Dingus,

This all stems from a lack of education in the Gyms where LNT is not even considered as a subject.

Hell, the new generation can't even go one minute without that Cell device being manipulated in one way or another.

Lack of edu in the consideration of consequences from ones behavior and actions is no longer taught at any grade level within the schools.

So, what do ya expect from the ignorant ones that are accessing these areas?

Now, if the culprits are those that know better, have been around long enough and know the gig, then they need to be chastised to the max and their names exposed to all of us old timers that do our best to keep the flame of ethics and respect for the rock alive.

BTW, LNT is the Rule of Law. Look at the back of any WP or Access Permit for any plot of land that is under the charge of any "Tool". Ask Doug Robinson about this finite Black and White law.

I agree that some of this is the result of folks trying to make $$$$$$$ off of climbing.

And I think all guides and climbing gyms need to teach more than just knots and belaying....

I feel like "we climbers" ( that means anybody who goes outside and goes up-hill) do have a responsibility to take care of our "places".

..... GK

And McConnel....... a trillion is to big a number for me to figure out........ My kid told me a trillion seconds ago.... would put you back in Roman times.

please write it out for me. How many zeros?

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Thanks. I understand LNT just fine. Its a good principle but sadly, too often succumbs to 'do as I say, not as I did.' Even WITHIN the federal land management agencies, there is a pervasive attitude that LNT is for 'the other guy.'

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Of course gym-bred climbers seek to take their experience out doors. They are encouraged to do so, on this very board and elsewhere, where they are mocked for climbing in a gym to begin with.

DMT

It is the Law. Justification and excuses why many do not respect it is no reason for not doing so.

They are mocked not for climbing in the Gym. Rather, for attempting to transcend the Indoor Gym Ideals out into the Natural outdoor environment. Two completely different concepts with completely different set of rules.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:I don't think subsequent generations are going to be hand wringing over a little brush clearing.

Correct me if my impression is incorrect, but subsequent generations don't much care about littering, either, do they?

butitsadryheat wrote:
You want our kids to learn that there are consequences to our actions?!?! How DARE you!

Think of their self-esteem! Restrictions lower self-esteem!

Guyzo wrote:please write it out for me. How many zeros?

Either 1 000 000 000 000 or 1 000 000 000 000 000 000, depending on if you're short or long.


When did this thread turn into a bunch of old guys complaining about the kids playing on their lawn?

butitsadryheat wrote:

The Chief wrote:Lack of edu in the consideration of consequences from ones behavior and actions is no longer taught at any grade level within the schools.

You want our kids to learn that there are consequences to our actions?!?! How DARE you!

Sounds like some want to just accept this as the future. I prefer not to. A place in the Kern River Canyon here is being closed because of too many use trails braiding up the area and resulting in lots of cut brush. It will be a temporary closure, for rehab, but I'm glad to see it.

And Guy, you wrote the number for quadrillion; a thousand trillion (how our national budgets will be calcualted soon!)

Where/ What in the Kern river is closed?

One time I witnessed a "restoration project". It took about 20 people, who spent about 90 days working to erase a 200 foot long dirt road.

Guess what- after about 8 weeks..... all the "restored plants" had died

After 6 years, and one fire, the road is really gone. "Mother Nature" know how to take care of herself.

All these "restoration projects" sure do cost a lot of $$$$$$$.

Thats one of the reasons we have a 1,000 trillion budget.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Now in my little world, I am model for no one. But I'm no one's follower either. I make up my own mind. I can't be ordered, but I can be convinced. I listen to reason but I don't think the Book of Regs is the last stop on this topic.

DMT

Oh how very contrar you are....



We must all set an example for those that we are charged with. The choices that we make amongst those individuals around us, will indeed influence them in one way or another in the future.

We are all models for someone, whether we like it or not.

Someone is always watching... it's a very intricate component of that "Tribal" mentality you constantly share about.

Guyzo wrote:Guess what- after about 8 weeks..... all the "restored plants" had died

After 6 years, and one fire, the road is really gone. "Mother Nature" know how to take care of herself.

All these "restoration projects" sure do cost a lot of $$$$$$$.

In California, the best way to restore an area is to put a fence around it.

Strange, I agree with both The Chief and DMT.