SummitPost.org

The Chief wrote:They don't have that option, they are Professionals, have a job to perform that they have chosen to do.

That is why they are there doing what they do.

We should all be glad and thankful that those few select folks out there, that choose to operate in this capacity, do so.

A couple of months ago, I got separated from my partner in a white-out on Mt. Baldy. For several nerve-wracking hours I feared the worst. Fortunately, later that night the clouds cleared, the winds calmed, and my friend got a ride off the mountain in a helicopter.

Several friends and people I work with asked if and how we were going to pay for the SAR, or they criticized us for wasting tax dollars on the cost of the SAR. We were not asked to pay anything to volunteers or public agencies who assisted in the SAR. I have heard that some states do come after people who end up using assistance from SAR missions. I don't think that's the law in California. I think it's like Chief says, they're professionals, its their job. This doesn't mean that anyone should frivolously endanger themselves or request a SAR because they want an easy way off the mountain or out of the backcountry. The humiliation of having to throw in the towel and get SAR help is enough deterent for me.

The helicopter that my friend got the ride from was owned and operated by the San Bernardino County Sherrif's Department. The pilot and crew fly that aircraft on patrol 7 days a week regardless if anyone needs help or not.

So more back on topic, I also would not ask or expect anyone to take an extraordinary risk to rescue me or recover my body, but I am very appreciative of those who conduct SAR and body recovery missions as their profession or calling.

RickF wrote:

The Chief wrote:They don't have that option, they are Professionals, have a job to perform that they have chosen to do.

That is why they are there doing what they do.

We should all be glad and thankful that those few select folks out there, that choose to operate in this capacity, do so.

A couple of months ago, I got separated from my partner in a white-out on Mt. Baldy. For several nerve-wracking hours I feared the worst. Fortunately, later that night the clouds cleared, the winds calmed, and my friend got a ride off the mountain in a helicopter.

Several friends and people I work with asked if and how we were going to pay for the SAR, or they criticized us for wasting tax dollars on the cost of the SAR. We were not asked to pay anything to volunteers or public agencies who assisted in the SAR. I have heard that some states do come after people who end up using assistance from SAR missions. I don't think that's the law in California. I think it's like Chief says, they're professionals, its their job. This doesn't mean that anyone should frivolously endanger themselves or request a SAR because they want an easy way off the mountain or out of the backcountry. The humiliation of having to throw in the towel and get SAR help is enough deterent for me.

The helicopter that my friend got the ride from was owned and operated by the San Bernardino County Sherrif's Department. The pilot and crew fly that aircraft on patrol 7 days a week regardless if anyone needs help or not.

So more back on topic, I also would not ask or expect anyone to take an extraordinary risk to rescue me or recover my body, but I am very appreciative of those who conduct SAR and body recovery missions as their profession or calling.

I partly understand why people get upset about spending tax dollars on rescues since it is just a hobby.

However, there are many examples where you can kick that ball back. Obese people that stuff themselves all day and just watch TV make my health insurance rates go up as well. Should I get angry with them and tell them what to eat?

The Chief wrote:C'mon!

In most if not ALL cases, the relatives wishes are that the remains be returned so that they can do the formalities and have their burial gig with the family.

I have been on several BR Ops around the world, and on each one, it was the families deep concern and intent to ensure that their loved one be found and returned ASAP!

This is more on a topic separate from what I initially asked, since it inevitably has to do with the family and friends of the deceased and is unique in every case. For example, Tom's friends and many of his family members had no interest in seeing his body, and the showing and funeral were only put on at the request of his mother - a devout Catholic. Many people felt that it went against Tom's wishes regarding death (I believe he was an agnostic) and it created a lot of tension amongst those who loved Tom as far as how to say goodbye.

A compromise was reached where Tom ultimately was cremated and spread into the Pacific rather than being buried. For many people, my serving as a witness to his passing served as better closure for them than having a body since I could confirm his passing and what happened.

I know in my case that I would expect a similar tension between close friends and family who know and respect my wishes, and the more religious side of my family who aren't as willing to respect these wishes. But then again, I wouldn't want to deny people closure, but a balance between these conflicts ideally should be reached ahead of time within the family.

RickF wrote: . . . Several friends and people I work with asked if and how we were going to pay for the SAR, or they criticized us for wasting tax dollars on the cost of the SAR. We were not asked to pay anything to volunteers or public agencies who assisted in the SAR. I have heard that some states do come after people who end up using assistance from SAR missions.

My understanding of this is that if your actions indicate gross negligence, then there may be some attempt to recoup costs from you. However, genuine accidents aren't followed up with a request to cover costs as this creates all sorts of legal problems for SAR and may increase the danger of rescues as people try to avoid 'paying' for a rescue by waiting too long to request one.

Some parts of Shasta melt out in the summer, so aside from legal issues, one would have to be careful about where the body was left.

It wasn't always so cut and dry in the Sierra:
http://www.stanford.edu/~galic/rettenbacher/graves.html


For higher peaks, there are the problems with the altitude limits for helicopter recovery.

oh, and "Mountain Rescue Doctor" has a really good discussion on the costs of SAR to society and the billing of victims. Since the book is written by a member of the Hood SAR, he's definitely in a position to know about the workings of such things.

FortMental wrote:All those fat-assed gear-sluts sitting at the trailhead in their shiny scratch-free Jeeps with SAR stickers, saying things like, 'Durned fool thing bein' up there on them rocks'. And going home to a hero's welcome for their courage in in locating the elderly tourist who forgot to bring water.

ODD...

These fat-assed dudes (which I was an active part of for 5 years) did more "Wall" extractions in the Valley and throughout the Sierra, than any other entity so far.


And they do it for FREE!



Oh, and let us not forget these fat-assed folks who put their asses on the line all over the PACNW and Alaska as well. For FREE also.

FortMental wrote:That's great Chief. But no one's talking about the frikkin' navy. I thought that'd be obvious. I guess not.

Navy?

Hey it's not just the Navy.... it the ANG and Local/State Law Enforcement that do ALL the major Body Evacs. And it is all done for free.

To answer OP's question, it would be a tough call for the family and friends, especially everyone knows Beck Weathers' story...

FortMental wrote:

The Chief wrote: And it is all done for free.

Bullshit. You, of all people should know what the billing rate for 1 hr. of Sea-King flying time is. And then explain why tax payers should pay 3,000 times more than the going rate for two guys and a donkey (when it comes to body recovery).

Oh my!

Apparently you do not know anything about the NSRP Cooperative in which entities such as the ones I posted are paid by the local/State Tax Payers at a standard rate and not by the victims. Just like any other Public Service that responds to any emergency.

DOD assets come under the scrutiny of JRCC out of Lackland AFB , FL and the funding is all under the DOD.

Both are already paid for and fall under the annual budget of each entity.

Again, good restraint Chief. Useful info all.

Usually relatives need "closure," and often that means finding a body, and at least burying the body (where allowed).

I believe it is even illegal to spread ashes in a lot of public lands; that sure doesn't stop folks.

Dow Williams wrote:If you ever get the chance, read Chip Brown's (Laura Waterman) Good Morning Midnight.

+1, excellent book

I'm also confused on the whole rescue expense to the hiker/climber in question.

I did join the AAC for some coverage outside of the US.

dynamokiev98 wrote:AS I HEARD..if you need a helicopter rescue from the mountains you will be billed for 10,000$. When you sign up to be a member of American Alpine Club they will cover you for half of that if you need one..http://www.americanalpineclub.org/whyjoin
This was told to me by a friend...maybe someone with more knowledge on this issue can comment? And is it a good idea to join this club?

IN or OUT of CONUS?

Source if IN CONUS please.

PellucidWombat wrote:
a balance between these conflicts ideally should be reached ahead of time within the family.

This can be the hardest part of all of this. Your preferences (cremation or no, being left on the mountain if circumstances permit, military honors, if applicable, etc.) should be clearly expressed to the person you would want making decisions on your behalf in the event of your demise. It certainly could not hurt to write those preferences on a piece of paper so your orally expressed preferences could not be forgotten with the passage of time or later remembered incorrectly. 'Course, not offending different family members can be the hardest part, such as considering the feelings of your devoutly religious mother when you yourself are not so devout and where you might have a wife or husband who has a third point of view. But I think the key here is expressing your preferences "before the fact" so your survivors at least can't be arguing about what you wanted.