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mrchad9 wrote:3 MONTHS!!!

That's pathetic. I feel sorry for the victim and her family.

The kid was 14. How is more time going to help anything? He is not a danger to the community and will not be able to do the same thing again. Not to mention, 3 months is not out of the ordinary for 2nd degree manslaughter.

Mountainjeff wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:3 MONTHS!!!

That's pathetic. I feel sorry for the victim and her family.

The kid was 14. How is more time going to help anything? He is not a danger to the community and will not be able to do the same thing again. Not to mention, 3 months is not out of the ordinary for 2nd degree manslaughter.

Well, as I said, I do not think the age should matter. If the state's position is that 14 year olds are responsible enough to hunt, then I think they should be held to adult prison times if they shoot someone. If that is an issue, then perhaps a law saying that only adults are permitted to hunt. This is similar to why children are not allowed to drive. Because if they did, they'd be committing 2nd degree manslaughter all over the place. And my goodness. We don't allow them to have a beer, but they can carry loaded weapons?

I'm not trying to get into a 2nd Amendment discussion. I know having such a law banning their hunting might be tricky. But if they are going to choose do an adult activity with potentially life threatening consequences, I think they should be treated as adults. They always have the freedom to do something else. And that could be instituted without any 2nd Amendment hurdles. Just my thoughts. I know it will never happen. It won't win votes, except for the unfortunate families of those who have been killed.

If a kid did go away for many years though, it is possible others would either be more careful about shooting outlines of animals, or make the decision not to hunt at all.

Well this is the second post 1000pks has put up recently that I agree with completely from beginning to end.

And I did not even catch that there was no adult present. Only another minor. Yes. Such an activity should be illegal without an adult present, or give them adult time. There's no excuse for what happened. You either know what you are shooting at, or it's murder.

mrchad9 wrote:You either know what you are shooting at, or it's murder.

That could not be further from the truth. There is a huge difference between an accidental killing and an intentional murder. I am in no way saying that the kid should have not been held responsible, but he is different than a murderer. He made a horrible mistake, but should be given the chance to grow up and become a quality member of society (which cannot happen while sitting in jail).

On the subject of what age should be allowed to hunt, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to hunt unsupervised (and the supervisor should have several years of hunting experience). The state government did not do a sufficient job making laws to fix this. Frankly, I think peoples' anger should be aimed at the government. The kid was never convicted of breaking hunting hunting regulations. Since the regulations failed, they need to change. That is what will save lives, not locking some 14 year old up.

I don't care what anyone says or what anyone wears. I just don't risk it during hunting season. Knowing that Bubba is out there is disturbing enough, but knowing that Bubba now has a gun?....

I am largely in agreement with your second paragraph there Mountainjeff. The way things are presently, the state is primarily at fault. You can't really hold this kid to a different standard until the state gives them the proper rules to follow. And if those rules are broken, then there is a problem the kid should have to deal with. I could accept all of that.

1000Pks, you are on today. You've put up quite a few good reads.

Would also agree with 1000Pks here. Many jail sentences are not about correcting the wrong or even punishing the victim, but being a deterrence for potential future crimes. I am sure some, not all, 14 year olds consider this when they are doing various activities.

mrchad9 wrote:Would also agree with 1000Pks here. Many jail sentences are not about correcting the wrong or even punishing the victim, but being a deterrence for potential future crimes. I am sure some, not all, 14 year olds consider this when they are doing various activities.

Defense attorney Roy Howson had argued the shooting was a tragic accident. Although a reasonable adult should have taken the busy hiking trail into account, he argued the same couldn't be expected of a 14-year-old.

Sounds like 14-year olds are not qualified to hunt without adult supervision.

mrchad9 wrote:Well this is the second post 1000pks has put up recently that I agree with completely from beginning to end.

And I did not even catch that there was no adult present. Only another minor. Yes. Such an activity should be illegal without an adult present, or give them adult time. There's no excuse for what happened. You either know what you are shooting at, or it's murder.

Correction: "You either know what you are shooting at, or it's manslaughter.

Tanngrisnir3 wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:Well this is the second post 1000pks has put up recently that I agree with completely from beginning to end.

And I did not even catch that there was no adult present. Only another minor. Yes. Such an activity should be illegal without an adult present, or give them adult time. There's no excuse for what happened. You either know what you are shooting at, or it's murder.

Correction: "You either know what you are shooting at, or it's manslaughter.

I was intending to communicate what I thought it should be, not was the laws on the books say today. I likely was not clear about that.

The past 24 hours, no 4 days, has been... well... a lot!

Yeah! I feel the disturbance too! And I'm anxiously awaiting the next story.

Mountainjeff wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:You either know what you are shooting at, or it's murder.

That could not be further from the truth. There is a huge difference between an accidental killing and an intentional murder. I am in no way saying that the kid should have not been held responsible, but he is different than a murderer. He made a horrible mistake, but should be given the chance to grow up and become a quality member of society (which cannot happen while sitting in jail).

On the subject of what age should be allowed to hunt, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to hunt unsupervised (and the supervisor should have several years of hunting experience). The state government did not do a sufficient job making laws to fix this. Frankly, I think peoples' anger should be aimed at the government. The kid was never convicted of breaking hunting hunting regulations. Since the regulations failed, they need to change. That is what will save lives, not locking some 14 year old up.

If you shoot a gun into a house that may or may not be occupied, you run the risk of killing someone. If you're willing to assume the risk, you're still a murderer. The act may not have been premeditated, but you're certainly reckless as to the possibility that you're going to kill someone.

I may get flak on this (particularly as I'm a parent), but if you hunt, let your minor child hunt, but don't lock up the gun when you're not around, you share the blame and should do some time as well. With great power comes great responsibility. I see a lot of arguments about how sacrosanct the 2nd Amendment is, but few people willing to take it on the chin when those same firearms land them in trouble.

Just thought I'd comment on a couple of points.

Orange clothing - there are different requirements for hunter dress depending on where you live. In Manitoba, you must wear an orange hat or toque (or "beanie" for my US friends....) and a minimum amount of torso area must be covered in orange. Most people wear a vest to satisfy the second requirement. Orange hunting clothing makes sense, but if you're like me and don't wish to spend money on dedicated hunting clothes (I actually use old insulated coveralls from the farm) it's easier to drop a few dollars on a vest.

Hunting age/supervision - Not all jurisdictions are the same (again). A 14 yr old can't hunt unsupervised in Manitoba (and I doubt that they can in any Canadian province though I wouldn't be surprised if that differed in the territories).

Fort Mental - you raise an interesting point about those that hunt vs. those that spend time in the woods. Most of the people I interact/socialize with during deer season are well connected to the land they hunt on because they own the land (i.e. farmers, my father in-law is a cattle farmer) while others do spend time scouting. That said, there are a number of city cowboys that never get out until hunting begins. These same people rarely practice with their firearms (another issue in my book).

BTW - I am happy to say that I don't personally know any hunters that drink when they hunt.

Fury wrote:Just thought I'd comment on a couple of points.

Orange clothing - there are different requirements for hunter dress depending on where you live. In Manitoba, you must wear an orange hat or toque (or "beanie" for my US friends....) and a minimum amount of torso area must be covered in orange. Most people wear a vest to satisfy the second requirement. Orange hunting clothing makes sense, but if you're like me and don't wish to spend money on dedicated hunting clothes (I actually use old insulated coveralls from the farm) it's easier to drop a few dollars on a vest.

Hunting age/supervision - Not all jurisdictions are the same (again). A 14 yr old can't hunt unsupervised in Manitoba (and I doubt that they can in any Canadian province though I wouldn't be surprised if that differed in the territories).

Fort Mental - you raise an interesting point about those that hunt vs. those that spend time in the woods. Most of the people I interact/socialize with during deer season are well connected to the land they hunt on because they own the land (i.e. farmers, my father in-law is a cattle farmer) while others do spend time scouting. That said, there are a number of city cowboys that never get out until hunting begins. These same people rarely practice with their firearms (another issue in my book).

BTW - I am happy to say that I don't personally know any hunters that drink when they hunt.

I've been hiking my whole life, and hunting for most of it, and I can safely say that the only serious (and predictably constant) drinkers during hunting (that I've ever met, in any case) are duck hunters. Stalking-type hunting that I do, for pig/turkey/deer, doesn't lend itself at all to flailing about, bad balance, being loud, etc....

That said, I don't recall ever actually liking any of the duck hunters I've ever met, for that matter. Political, conspicuous consumption types, already loud and obnoxious. I've met too many who are/were car dealers.