SummitPost.org

Day Hiker wrote:That is some creepy shit. Just reading the description invokes strong feelings of claustrophobia.

I've been through some pretty tight slot canyons, and that is my limit. I don't mind the tourist caves that can be walked through, but there is no way could you pay me enough to do one of those asinine crawl-through caves.

It baffles me that they couldn't just tie a cable or big-ass rope around his ankles and pull him out. And it's even more surprising that they couldn't manage this with the dead body. Just connect the ankles to a cable to a big winch, and start pulling. Something is going to happen.

Closing the cave and leaving a dead body seems really odd.

I would agree with most of the posts here. While my heart goes out to his family and their grief, it seems pretty assinine to close an entire cave that has exists with few incidents for 20 years, and that has taken nature thousands of years to produce. It sets a scary precedent....


As far as caving goes though...after looking at that link, I'll stick to my ridgelines, thanks.

I was actually set to go the morning that he got stuck....had the combo and everything until I got a call from the cave manager explaining the situation. He was optomistic at the time and said we might even be able to come back later that night and go in....now I will never get to go. Funny thing is I originally had the reservations for the day before he got stuck, but changed them to go with this girl, my other friends were angry that I switched and before learning of his death taunted me with "Nobody was stuck in the cave Monday, maybe you should have gone then!"

There is a petition going around to try and keep the cave open, I mean after the body decomposes a bit it it should be easy to get out right? I feel really bad for the family, it really is a tragedy, but closing the cave is not the answer. Tens of thousands of people have been through this cave without incidence. Also it is actually one of the only clay caves in the world, while not amazingly beautiful, it is unique.

There used to be some liability issues as it is one private property, but the Timpanogas Grotto has done alot of work installing the gate, and developing the permit system with release waivers presicely to get around that issue. Since the caves reopening this past may all legal concerns have been addressed. It is really a tragedy for this to happen now after they developed this new system. Hopefully, they can be convinced to not close the cave permanantly, but only until the body can be retrieved.

Yeah, that makes sense. Something positive is bound to materialize out of this.

apachedino wrote: Hopefully, they can be convinced to not close the cave permanantly, but only until the body can be retrieved.

That is my hope. I've been through the cave 4-5 times. It's a fun experience. I hope to see the cave remain open after time is given to respect the retrieval of the body. I've read reports of possibly leaving the body in there, and that makes no sense to me. Remember the 5 snowboarders that died on Timp in the avalanche. They searched for days and couldn't find three of the bodies. Eventually they called off the search. So did they close the Orion Couloir permanently and leave the bodies there for a permanent burial/memorial? No. They waited for conditions to change (spring to come) and got the bodies when the snow melted. I can understand if the cave is closed temporarily to allow the body to decay, or to retrieve it as "conditions change" later. But to leave the man in there permanently? To me that's odd.

Similar to what has been mentioned on this thread: people have died at almost every ski resort in the Wasatch, yet they remain open. People have died on many of the popular Wasatch Peaks, yet they remain open. People drown in community pools, rivers, and lakes; yet they remain open. Most of our popular ice climbing areas in the Wasatch have seen deaths, yet they remain open. Remember that poor young boy who was killed by a bear in AF canyon at a designated campsite a few years back, yet it remains open. Life is unpredictable and risky by nature.

I hope my comments don't impress a lack of compassion or understanding. I, in fact, had a brother die at Lake Powell in a jet-ski accident 4 years ago. It was a horrible, shocking experience. I have since found peace, healing and perspective as time has passed, but at no point would I think it necessary or appropriate to bar others from experiencing jet-skis, Lake Powell, etc. just because my family had a tragic experience.

I've always liked this quote that I've seen attributed to Helen Keller: "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing."

But to leave the man in there permanently? To me that's odd.

The cave is on private land and for years they have been looking for an excuse to close it. I wouldn't expect it to be open any time soon.

My Dad owns 700 acres of land in the Ozarks with 2 differennt cave systems on it. Sadly, a lot of the cave was destroyed in the last century when "the law" of the area though that they had Jesse James trapped in it and set some explosives to cave it in. You can still go in a few hundred feet to a few hundred meters down two different branches, but we can only wonder what now lies behind the huge boulders that seal off the other branch. Anyway, there are areas in our caves that I've gotten stuck in. Probably some of the scariest times in my life next to some experiences in Iraq, but just to echo everyone here, it's a risk that you take, and by no means should another cave be closed off simply because someone died in it. Gotta love politicians exploiting the loss of this young man to achieve their goals.

A cement plug has been poured into the crawlway just after the gate. It's possible to remove it at some later date. But for the time being the cave is closed.

Scott wrote:

But to leave the man in there permanently? To me that's odd.

The cave is on private land and for years they have been looking for an excuse to close it. I wouldn't expect it to be open any time soon.

That's what I said at the beginning of the thread. The cave is on private land.

I didn't know there were so many cave explorers on SP - until now.

Maybe somebody should get a petition going on this issue.

Maybe somebody should get a petition going on this issue.

There are already several petitions going around.

Even though the cave isn't any good (it is not pretty at all), it would be nice to keep it opened, but there are so many other issues on public land that need more addressing. Luckily, there are so many other caves in the area that are better anyway.

Scott wrote:

Luckily, there are so many other caves in the area that are better anyway.

Agreed, but probably the other cave-loving folks just wanted to express their feelings.

It does seem a real shame that the darn thing was closed.

Scott wrote:Even though the cave isn't any good (it is not pretty at all),

Eye of the beholder. I have at least found popcorn formations in there.

Luckily, there are so many other caves in the area that are better anyway.

That's one of the things that's so great about Nutty Putty. A place that's safe for novices and non-cavers to go, where they won't damage delicate formations. Ironically, closing Nutty Putty, for the purpose of "safety", is just going to push novices into more dangerous caves. Good thing they already blocked off the nearby Blowhole, Silly Putty, Rabbit Trap, etc.!