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dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

But that's where I reside!
Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

dskoon wrote:

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

No, I'm the one arguing that snow found at 10,000 feet on the side of Rainier doesn't need to be treated.

I also drink straight out of springs and will drink straight out of a stream if I think I am pretty close to its source.

But I don't know how a parasite like giardia can get into surface snow at 10,000 feet.

MikeTX wrote:

dskoon wrote:

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

But that's where I reside!
Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

don, there don't necessarily need to be a lot of campers near a water source for there to be a risk of water-borne pathogens. other animal feces carry pathogens just as well. many people take the risk of drinking water from "pretty clean sources" all the time and don't get sick, but some people do get sick. for me, i would just as soon treat my water somehow (filter, chemical or boil) and sleep better knowing that I've reduced at least one factor that could ruin my trip.

I know, I know. . . but, do you think many animals shit in the water? Perhaps near it, but. . .
Anyway, interesting topic, as always when this subject comes up.
Personal choice, definitely. Couple of my friends who have scientific backgrounds, think I'm crazy when I drink from a couple of streams when we're hiking out in the gorge. Mind you, I said a couple; I don't drink willy Nelly from every water source I see. Haven't been sick yet. . . Probably will continue to do so until I get sick, if ever.

What about these two iconic figures from the Northwest, Ira Spring and Harvey Manning. Co Wrote and photographed many a guidebook here in the PNW, spanning a few decades. Hiked damn near every summer, literally from one end of the Cascades to the other, and some in the Sierra as well. Took familial generations back there with them. Read in one of their books that he considered it sacrilegious to filter mountain water. (I don't know all of his details, maybe he boiled it sometimes if he felt it necessary). Romantic, that sacrilegious notion, I know, but he didn't really mention himself or others getting sick. Again, this from a guy who hiked everywhere in the Cascades. Just chance that he didn't get sick?
What about another icon, Fred Beckey? Do you think he carried a filter with him? Doubtful.
What about ol' Mr. Muir? He seems to have survived ok, along with all those other early Sierra pioneer climbers and explorers. Presumably there were plenty of animals in the mountains back then, probably more so than now. . .

Everyone evaluates the risks and makes their own decision.
Personally, I think filtering is a mix of marketing and the fear factor that runs rampant through this country. . . (whew, really opening up the ol' Pandora's box now!).
Should one be careful about their water in the backcountry? Yes, but how careful becomes just a personal decision, like everything else.
Again, you all will probably have the last laugh when I"m laid-low with a bad case of the shits.
But, I have read some stuff, that suggests the risk of getting giardia is rather low, at least in the Cascades and Sierra. This, again, from people more qualified than I, who've gone back there and tested the water in the summer. One report I was reading even suggested that most who contract giardia get it from their own unsanitary practices before/while eating.
There ya go. The box is now open!

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

No, I'm the one arguing that snow found at 10,000 feet on the side of Rainier doesn't need to be treated.

I also drink straight out of springs and will drink straight out of a stream if I think I am pretty close to its source.

But I don't know how a parasite like giardia can get into surface snow at 10,000 feet.

Ah, ok, my misinterpretation of your scarcasm.
Sounds like your drinking habits in the backcountry, are similar to mine.
Me, I've drank from the sparkling streams(unflitered!), at the toe of some of those glaciers, and snowfields, down on the somewhat lower flanks of Rainier. Didn't get sick. . . Guess those animals didn't shit in the waters I drank from. . . Or, I'm just lucky.

This picture illustrates why I prefer to boil or melt+filter my water at Camp Muir. That snow is dirty. Granted, this picture was in August (and yes, I've been to Muir in June, with fresh clean snow). But why chance it?

dskoon wrote:What about these two iconic figures from the Northwest, Ira Spring and Harvey Manning. Co Wrote and photographed many a guidebook here in the PNW, spanning a few decades. Hiked damn near every summer, literally from one end of the Cascades to the other, and some in the Sierra as well. Took familial generations back there with them. Read in one of their books that he considered it sacrilegious to filter mountain water.

Are we veering too far off topic with this?

Harvey Manning is one of my personal heroes. This is the first time I have ever seen his named mentioned, except by me. His Backpacking One Step at a Time is as funny and informative book on the subject as I have ever seen. And since he wrote about general principles rather than specific recommendations, my second edition copy from around 1982 is still relevant.

Of course, he was also an early editor of Mountaineering, the Freedom of the Hills.

Anyway, he was an opinionated old curmudgeon, so you can sometimes get into trouble by quoting him. Nonetheless, I want to be just like him (though not so heavy).

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:What about these two iconic figures from the Northwest, Ira Spring and Harvey Manning. Co Wrote and photographed many a guidebook here in the PNW, spanning a few decades. Hiked damn near every summer, literally from one end of the Cascades to the other, and some in the Sierra as well. Took familial generations back there with them. Read in one of their books that he considered it sacrilegious to filter mountain water.

Are we veering too far off topic with this?

Harvey Manning is one of my personal heroes. This is the first time I have ever seen his named mentioned, except by me. His Backpacking One Step at a Time is as funny and informative book on the subject as I have ever seen. And since he wrote about general principles rather than specific recommendations, my second edition copy from around 1982 is still relevant.

Of course, he was also an early editor of Mountaineering, the Freedom of the Hills.

Anyway, he was an opinionated old curmudgeon, so you can sometimes get into trouble by quoting him. Nonetheless, I want to be just like him (though not so heavy).

Bold mine.
Yep, they were both opinionated guys. . . And, if you really want to be like him, make sure you leave that filter at home. Along with the gun, at least in the backcountry.

All these people who have been drinking untreated water from "clean" sources and never had any problems, I advise you to go get tested for H. pylori. This is a common parasite that most climbers and backpackers have, but may not know about as it does not manifest itself, but in the long run causes ulcers and gastric cancers.

dskoon wrote:

MikeTX wrote:

dskoon wrote:

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

But that's where I reside!
Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

don, there don't necessarily need to be a lot of campers near a water source for there to be a risk of water-borne pathogens. other animal feces carry pathogens just as well. many people take the risk of drinking water from "pretty clean sources" all the time and don't get sick, but some people do get sick. for me, i would just as soon treat my water somehow (filter, chemical or boil) and sleep better knowing that I've reduced at least one factor that could ruin my trip.

I know, I know. . . but, do you think many animals shit in the water? Perhaps near it, but. . .
Anyway, interesting topic, as always when this subject comes up.
Personal choice, definitely. Couple of my friends who have scientific backgrounds, think I'm crazy when I drink from a couple of streams when we're hiking out in the gorge. Mind you, I said a couple; I don't drink willy Nelly from every water source I see. Haven't been sick yet. . . Probably will continue to do so until I get sick, if ever.

What about these two iconic figures from the Northwest, Ira Spring and Harvey Manning. Co Wrote and photographed many a guidebook here in the PNW, spanning a few decades. Hiked damn near every summer, literally from one end of the Cascades to the other, and some in the Sierra as well. Took familial generations back there with them. Read in one of their books that he considered it sacrilegious to filter mountain water. (I don't know all of his details, maybe he boiled it sometimes if he felt it necessary). Romantic, that sacrilegious notion, I know, but he didn't really mention himself or others getting sick. Again, this from a guy who hiked everywhere in the Cascades. Just chance that he didn't get sick?
What about another icon, Fred Beckey? Do you think he carried a filter with him? Doubtful.
What about ol' Mr. Muir? He seems to have survived ok, along with all those other early Sierra pioneer climbers and explorers. Presumably there were plenty of animals in the mountains back then, probably more so than now. . .

Everyone evaluates the risks and makes their own decision.
Personally, I think filtering is a mix of marketing and the fear factor that runs rampant through this country. . . (whew, really opening up the ol' Pandora's box now!).
Should one be careful about their water in the backcountry? Yes, but how careful becomes just a personal decision, like everything else.
Again, you all will probably have the last laugh when I"m laid-low with a bad case of the shits.
But, I have read some stuff, that suggests the risk of getting giardia is rather low, at least in the Cascades and Sierra. This, again, from people more qualified than I, who've gone back there and tested the water in the summer. One report I was reading even suggested that most who contract giardia get it from their own unsanitary practices before/while eating.
There ya go. The box is now open!

I could be wrong but I think I read the giardia in the US (or western US at least) was introduced from Europe/Asia, so creek drinking may have been less of an issue in the old days (or with less people out and about).

Edit: Sorry for continuing the thread drift!

I answer all of thes questions with one caveat: if you're having to ask these questions, I doubt that you should be climbing Rainier without someone who can answer these questions for you.

That being said, I've attempted it many times in all weather conditions, and summited 3 times. So this is what I can say frommy experience.

1. I prefer more than 2 liters. At least 3 for me, because baking on the Muir snowfield can be HOT!

2. There can be water in the first couple of miles, but not really until late in the season.

3. All your water will be from snow, and the consistency will depend on how recently it snowed.

4. I will drink the water with silt and dirt after just melting it, but bringing it to a boil is probably a good idea. Coffee filter??? Seriously? What would be the point?

5. In my MSR Dragonfly, I plan 1 pint of fuel per day for 2 people when I'm melting snow. It will vary depending on your stove and liquid consumption.

6. In CO (where I live now) I can climb 1500'/hr. On Rainier, I figure less than 1000'/hr. Above high camp, many don't do better than 500'/hr. Have you ever climbed all day on ice and snow? That's a whole lot different than anything I've done in CO. CO 14ers are easy in comparison, unless you're doing them in winter.

Any other questions?

[quote="rockymtnclimber"]

1. I prefer more than 2 liters. At least 3 for me, because baking on the Muir snowfield can be HOT!

Me too, on that amount of water that is. 2.5l at least, for me. Rather have more water than not enough. . .