The Chief wrote:"Gong Show" aint Wilderness and the standard that prevails there was in fact set by the locals.

It looks more like Wilderness to me than the, "Wilderness" found at the end of the road (rock creek).

And isn't the "Gong Show" about as Trad as one can get?

Bottom line, when Strassman and crew placed bolts every 3 feet, to develop the other climbs there, the LOCALS didn't run up there and chop em......even though, you can see the bolt lines from a mile away, if your looking for them.

They had opinions about the roots and Mr. Strassman's manhood, but the climbs are still there today.

IMHO... almost all of the climbs there are worthless, poorly thought out abortions, and the bolts and hangers there could be better used elsewhere.

If I were to go and chop those climbs, I would be wrong to do so. It's not my place nor do I think that just because you live nearby is it your place to do this.

The rule works pretty good.... don't mess with other peoples roots.

gk

Guy, before ya go blaming MS for stuff, you may want to find out who really started to place all them bolted routes there and continued to do so.

It wasn't Mike. He just went along with it... that is a fact. The gent that did, was in fact a very staunch and well respected local.

And the gent that initially/originally started placing bolts at the GS area, also played a major role in the initial establishment of the Buttermilks, Little Egypt and Cardnal P.

The Chief wrote:Guy, before ya go blaming MS for stuff, you may want to find out who really started to place all them bolted routes there and continued to do so.

It wasn't Mike. He just went along with it... that is a fact. The gent that did, was in fact a very staunch and well respected local.

And the gent that initially/originally started placing bolts at the GS area, also played a major role in the initial establishment of the Buttermilks, Little Egypt and Cardnal P.

Chief.... all I know is this.... the first name in the book is "Mike Strassman" .....

if others were involved and I don't know of them I don't think one thing is changed at all.

Alan Bartlett was the first to put up climbs on Cardinal, I think, and he did other trad stuff "wild Rose" by south lake ..... no bolts, as of my last visit, at ether spot. ( maybe I am wrong)

I don't think anything is accomplished by not naming names.... are you talking about Doug Robinson????????????? That guy was once a very proud trad, had a big influence on my own climbing ethics. (but I don't think he knows.)

He is somebody I do not wish to be like when I get old..... He rap bolts, offers to sell first accents, and generally has tried to turn climbing into a commercial enterprise..... something he despised just a few short decades ago.

gk

Names are important Guy... they identify the philosophy and ethic of the time.

As you and Kris well know, any area has it's different names and those names laid the foundation for the standards in play today.

Now that you bring up the DR issue, the aspect of "Selling Out" can now come to the forefront.

I can see how many areas have been infected by the concept laid before them by these individuals that "Sold" themselves out and the initial standard.

BTW, DR had the first real route on Cardinal P... "Cucumbers"

Deleted by user.

I was going to use a route as an example but I do not want to draw undo attention to a route which has been around for 10 years, and one of the most amazing routes I've been on (even though it is "scarred" with a couple of bolts).

CClaude wrote:Deleted by user.

I was going to use a route as an example but I do not want to draw undo attention to a route which has been around for 10 years, and one of the most amazing routes I've been on (even though it is "scarred" with a couple of bolts).

Do tell

A climb that you call "amazing" must be worth it, despite any flaws.

Sort of like getting a perfect "10" undressed, and then you find out she has toe fungus.

Really makes little difference.

The route should be safe from someone chopping since if you do, you'd better leave the state real fast since I know 100 people who'd want to chop who ever does it

http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock ... ri-la.html

Claude - That looks like a fantastic climb. I hope folks leave it alone. Good luck up there.

CC... is P3 protectable with SOLID PRO?

Doesn't look like it...



At .12d and by the location of the bolts, I doubt it.

The fact that there are only six Pro Bolts for the entire P, is a completely valid drill job IMO.

Big difference compared to the route I posted where the P is 100% protectable w/ 2-6" Pro, has 14 Pro Bolts in that entire section and goes at a very conservative modern .10c. (More like .10a or Old Skool 9+)

it is actually. A guy named Ronnie Miller has been trying to do it clean (and a couple of us are talking about making it a winter project). Off the belay you get a grey (0.4) camalot, and then through the first crux you can get 2 green C3's in (blue aliens), and through the second crux you can get 2 more green C3's (blue aliens) and then before the third crux you can get a BD purple (0.5) C4, and then just before it a blue BD 0.3 C4 then you have to run it out in the stemming crux until you get a BD Red (1) C4. The falls will be big (hell even as a sports pitch I've caught some pretty big whippers off it) but clean. It will also make it harder probably putting it easy .13a. (IMHO) I figure how hard the climbing is shouldn't factor into to bolt or not to bolt reasoning since there is always someone who will climb harder .

Oh, but look at that pretty aid line to the right!

Dave Daly wrote:Oh, but look at that pretty aid line to the right!

I'm thinking its a trad line for the next generation

CClaude wrote:

Dave Daly wrote:Oh, but look at that pretty aid line to the right!

I'm thinking its a trad line for the next generation

+1

The Chief wrote:"Gong Show" aint Wilderness and the standard that prevails there was in fact set by the locals.

The route that I was referring to not only impeded onto someone elses route, it employed bolting methods counter to the traditional long standing local ethics and an over abundance of bolts. Far more than any other route in that entire area had ever seen.

So, does that not raise the red flag of concern.

How can you say that there are an over abundance of bolts on a climb that you have never climbed Chief? Or are you actually saying the presence of bolts in an "area" or lack thereof, should determine if a legitimate and mostly protection-less feature is FA'd or not? Very interesting. Wonder how bolts ever showed up in the Alabama Hills, or anywhere for that matter.

On another note, your Keeler Needle story from the other thread is quite interesting BTW. And hardly believable. Sounds like you already know who did it though.

CClaude wrote:….. easy .13a....

LOL, these 2 terms shouldn’t be in close proximity, IMHO