A picture is worth a thousand words -

squishy wrote: I remember holding onto a Pinnacles crystal (you know the ones, mud lovers) and just hoping it held long enough to get up. .

Yeah, nothing like grabbing onto a hold and feel it move. . uh, maybe I'd better reconsider that move...

I think fear is essential in the woods, it keeps the rest of me in check and keeps things in perspective. The times when I get do get sketched out are usually attributed to some unknown. So I guess experience gained is how I counter-act my fear.

I have a deep-seated fear of nuns. I do OK unless I meet nuns in the wilderness.

friendowl wrote:in one of my psychology courses a debate came up that people who willing engage in risky behaviors that could result in death are mentally unhealthy and suffer from some kind of childhood trauma.being stimulated by danger is also a symptom of individuals who score high on the p.t.s.i test.....after listening to my professor and some students discuss this it made me think of the mountains......i feel like all of us who really spend time outside faraway from the city have gotten into a situation where we could easily pass away....i myself have been in that slow motion death slide and im just lucky but many others wernt as lucky...but my question is How do you keep your fear in check and what kind of things do you think about or what goes through your mind when death is all around ?. I feel like climbers and hikers especially solo hikers are special people and i am fascinated by the mountain mentality.

I mainly walk the mountains alone. It does raise people's eyebrows when I say that. They see an overweight, older white haired guy in front of them.

I know there is a risk, especially as my preferred time of the year for walking is winter.

But I take care over route selection, always go fully equipped for the conditions, take a lot of interest in weather forecasts, local news reports etc.

I also tend to use the better weather away from winter to try out new walks that I feel are going to be OK to do in winter conditions.

So I have a safety first approach to my solo winter walking in the mountains. And my walks are just day walks. And on mountains in Wales that are not large by any standards.

That doesn't mean I have never faced a fearful situation. But I take every step to reduce that chance. And when I get into a difficult situation I am getting experienced enough now to be able to recognise it, and find a way of dealing with it. Turning back is something I have had to do only a few times. I love peak bagging but have come to realise that the old adage, "the mountain will still be there tomorrow", is a good one to follow!

friendowl wrote:in one of my psychology courses a debate came up that people who willing engage in risky behaviors that could result in death are mentally unhealthy and suffer from some kind of childhood trauma.

Obviously Libs!

friendowl wrote:...but my question is How do you keep your fear in check and what kind of things do you think about or what goes through your mind when death is all around ?. I feel like climbers and hikers especially solo hikers are special people and i am fascinated by the mountain mentality.

Sometimes I can't keep my fear in check. And I experience fear in different ways according to the circumstance. Some things I do, like fast driving and hanging on the curves, I've always been fine with. There, I'm real relaxed - "flowing" (known as Flow State" or The Zone). It comes down to ones natural skill. So for that, maybe I need to step up to real racing.

In the climbing world, it took me a while to get used to big drops, then I began to enjoy that. But when I've become really stretched, fear comes in. It's a natural hormone response to get you fired up and beyond it. But the problem is, it can also cause you to shake and withdraw blood from the extremities - not good if you are in fine balance. The only way out for me is just to push through it.

But even without a direct drop, the worst fear I've found is being isolated in bad conditions, especially if it's iced. More so as I don't use crampons. That fear comes from real deep and my legs began to shake and go weak, you almost wet yourself, and a sense of forbidding sets in. That's really choking, and I've started to swear that I'll never come here again. Even say god, when I don't believe in a god. But what I do to escape it is close in tight, shut everything out and build a mental wall - even using my jacket hood to shut it out and create a "closer me". Then I face the next icy step in front of me, one at a time and just use plain precision to step my way out.

When I get past a short spell of fear, I enjoy the dopamine rush. But when it's the second, isolated type, there's no real after-rush. So I feel only relief. But nonetheless, I go because in those moments I feel so alive. When people look at us and wonder why we go and experience these things, I feel sorry for them because they've missed something deep that they see only as purposeless.

But you know what's get me is, that fear comes hard wired from the basal brain - the Amygdala. It was all well good in ancient times when we had purely animal or tribal threats, but these days we don't need half that s**t. What good does it do me when I begin to shake on a mountain and it affects my performance. What good does it do when some jerk at the office is causing you stress, but there's no real threat. I just want to turn it off, and for some time I've been working to achieve that. The primal stuff can remain just for when its really needed. I've been seeking a way to condition my thinking to differentiate, but there's umpteen million years of biology to get round.

Interesting that you don't use crampons in icy conditions Ray?

Bryan, I don't use crampons because I learnt that way, and I found I had innate dexterity (also applies to the feet) and I've been gifted with precision - so I found a natural line of engineering for work. But I don't do long technical sections on ice, nor been to big all technical peaks. Though I have got myself into some bad situations above a drop, were one slip may have been irrecoverable. But I did train and prepare, learning to use the axe in every conceivable orientation, literally sliding down in safe places to do axe breaking automatically - head first, on my back, spinning. N. Wales and the Glyders was my training ground. Still, for now, I don't need to do that kind of thing.

Yeah, cave diving. Just such an awesome experience. But just altogher no way out. I would never do it. I can rely only on my skill and not just equipment.

Ray, I need crampons on almost any up/down icy/ frozen snowy surface when in the mountains.

As opposed to your dexterity I consider my walking style to resemble that of an out of control elephant! And no one who has ever walked with me has ever challenged that statement.

So I find my 12 point Grivels, along with my lovely new 90cm Black Diamond walkers Ice axe, (thank you so much to the USA for making and supplying me with this), essential gear for my winter mountain walks. And I don't think they give me a false sense of security either.

Bryan, as a teenager, truth is that I was too poor to afford crampons because I spent all my money on gear. Er, no that ain't right. Could it have been something to do with trips to Bavaria to see all those lovely sights - ahem - Bavarian... begins with D, and ends with L.

Well if we bump into each other in N. Wales, you'll look like a fleet footed gazelle if I try to climb Crib Goch knife edge without crampons.

Fear is relative to the person undertaking the activity. I'm prepared for the task I plan to undertake so I'm not frightened by it. I am exhilirated by the prospect of any trip to the mountains, and fear is furthest thing from my mind. I trust myself there because I know what I need to know to be safe and recognize my limitations. For the unprepared, mountaineering is wreckless endeavor and the fear is the sign of a healthy mind telling you to get the hell out of this dangerous situation. If climbing is the sign of an unhealthy mind, then lock me up and throw away the key. And everybody on this site should join me. (As a side note it should be added to the postal service employment application: "Do you engage in climbing? Do you own and automatic assault rifle? If you answered yes to either of the the previous two questions, skip to the bottom on the last page, throw your application in the trash basket to your left and exit quietly through the door marked "showers") Perhaps your professor/class should stick to the analysis of blind persons who fly down mountains in a wing suit. Now thats un-healthy!

Live to the fullest, but that doesn't mean die to the fullest...I want to live two lifetimes worth of adventure in a matter of a few years, and I'm trying my best. Only through perseverance can we acheive anything, but only through clear judgment and thought can we know and accept a necessary retreat.

-Mark

I usually hike solo. It's not that I don't like other people - it's just that I sometimes need the time away from others. Some people need solitude.

With respect to your question: I think that some people need the danger to feel alive. I don't think that's me, but the next time I am alone and considering a move where I could be hurt, I hope I remember to think about this. There have been a few occasions where I have made the decision to go ahead with something a little risky and succeeded - and right now I can't recall what I felt in the decision or result.

I don't think that people who seek danger have any sort of mental defect, but they are driven innately to seek out and perform risky activities. It seems to me that a lot of the people who pioneer the more risky recreational activities eventually end up getting killed pursuing the sports they pioneer. And that's sad and unfortunate. But, this may have been what they were supposed to do with their lives - are risk-seeking people ever going to be happy watching TV on their couches? (Not likely.)