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Sam Page wrote:

kiwiw wrote:nifty, I'd go second...

-1. I'd rather go first with a back-up anchor.

I was thinking the same, especially since I'm always the heaviest in any group.

Among the tricks to retrieve all your gear after a rappel, this is one of the least scary. On the other hand, it is not usable when the rope is damaged, because it requires rappelling on both strands.

The trick is rather poorly executed in that picture. Even assuming that the biner's sleeve was screwed tight before rappelling, the two holes look too close for comfort and there apparently was no backup for the first rappeller.

It's a good thing to practice and be ready for all events. I prefer to do so at ground level, though, when the safety margin is reduced. I'm happy to leave a few feet of webbing behind in a case like this.

brenta wrote:On the other hand, it is not usable when the rope is damaged, because it requires rappelling on both strands.

Why would you be required to rap on two strands? Could you not just rap single-strand, using a 'biner block (and a quick link instead of the 'biner in the photo)?

Day Hiker wrote:Could you not just rap single-strand, using a 'biner block (and a quick link instead of the 'biner in the photo)?

You are right, I should have written "set up for" instead of "usable." I was trying to figure out why these guys had decided to use that trick. Apparently not because of a damaged rope.

Day Hiker wrote:So maybe it was initially setup with the gate facing up.

It's likely that before the rope was clipped to the biner, the latter was sitting flat on the ice with the gate to the left. In the photo, it's kept with the gate facing in by the weight of the rope in spite of the twist in the sling. Easy to fix, but why didn't they fix it before they took a picture? Ideally, the bight of the rope that keeps the sling in place should be entirely to the right of the biner (instead of crossing under its gate). That would require either further twisting of the sling or unclipping and re-clipping it.

Looks like it would work. I'd have some reservations about the Abalakov itself as the holes are pretty close and don't look like they've been done with a long screw. In theory it should work perfectly, not sure about practice though!

As other people have pointed out though, it's basically to save a sling. Not worth your life if it doesn't work!

If it's this or rapping off shoelaces, I'd try this.

Since the sling is going to pull the rope in the V-thread entrance as hard as it can, and since this is on ice, I would be quite worried that the connection between rope and sling freezes and that it becomes impossible to pull hard enough to separate them (especially if the biner acts as a redirect of the pull direction). And that would mean a stuck rope, which is a problem much bigger than losing a piece of perlon cord.

That being said, I agree that it looks much safer than most other retrieval systems. It scares me just to think of the fifi+bungee one...

This does not look particularly safe, but it is the same technique used to retrieve an ice screw or and ice axe after rappelling on them.
Basically you place an long ice screw 19cm or better 22cm , but you let the screw stick out of the ice 2, 3 cm; than you wrap around it a thing piece of cord. Finally you shelf the rope over the part of the screw coming out of the ice and tie the small cord to the rope.
After you rappel... with caution...., you pull the rope which starts unwrapping the small piece of cord which starts unscrewing the screw from the ice.
It work pretty much the same with a trenched ice axe.
I used this technique only once, and I think that these procedure are worth it only when you need to save gear to get to the bottom...but not to save money.....

ingeneous but totally unnecessary, you don't need a carabiner to rappel on an abalakov, only a short piece of cord to make a loop through the abalakov, or if you dont want to waste the cordelette, just run the main rope through the holes.

Chewbacca wrote:What's stopping the sling from pulling the loop through the hole? There's bound to be a bit of friction and no Abalakovs last forever. Depedning on the diameter of the rope, at some point the loop will get pulled through or at least pulled into the hole and then everything is stuck.

nattfodd wrote:Since the sling is going to pull the rope in the V-thread entrance as hard as it can, and since this is on ice, I would be quite worried that the connection between rope and sling freezes and that it becomes impossible to pull hard enough to separate them (especially if the biner acts as a redirect of the pull direction). And that would mean a stuck rope, which is a problem much bigger than losing a piece of perlon cord.

Those are one of the first things that came to mind. Using a loose strand of rope to block a sling, sketchy. Then, even without ice involved, I cannot imagine the loop of rope easily sliding through the end of the tightened sling; I'd assume it would get stuck completely once the end of the rope loop cinches tight into the sling loop. Anyone happen to know if this has been tried out?

//edit:

as wrote:ingeneous but totally unnecessary, you don't need a carabiner to rappel on an abalakov, only a short piece of cord to make a loop through the abalakov, or if you dont want to waste the cordelette, just run the main rope through the holes.

I'm with Darwin on this one

I have absolutely zero ice expeience, but damn that looks sketchy I wouldn't trust it to hold the weight and I don't think it would be that easy to retrieve.

kiwiw wrote:you pull the rope, as you pull, that loop threaded through the sling pulls through, the sewn sling slides through the abaklov, and it all comes down, only the hole in the ice remains.
understand?

Maybe, but in a typical retrieval setup you'd attach the rope to the left side of the sling (in this case) so the weight of the rope pulls the webbing through the anchor. In this instance you would only have the weight of the biner which might not be enough.

This brings me back to the old "whether or not we could versus whether or not we should?". Why would anyone want to risk their life to retrieve a cheap piece of webbing or cord?

In fact you can't pull the rope down without pulling the bight out of the sling. The only way to do that is by pulling the left strand. (Pull the right strand and the knot will probably get stuck on the 'biner.) You pull a couple of feet on the left strand, then once the bight comes out the whole thing should fall due to the weight of the rope. If for some reason it doesn't (e.g., the sling has cut into the ice and gotten stuck), you can indeed pull on both strands, assuming you were a couple feet above the end of the rope when you started pulling (i.e. you can still reach the right strand).

Unfortunately, while you're pulling the left strand, the weight of the other (right) half of the rope would still be resting on the 'biner. This puts tension on the sling, pulling the rope bight into the hole and creating extra friction resisting your effort to pull the bight out. Might still work with a good sharp pull with body weight behind it.

There's always the previously-mentioned risk that the bight might get deeply jammed into the hole (e.g., while the system is weighted for rappel), making it impossible to pull the bight out. So there's a risk you'll lose your rope in an effort to save a sling. (edit: there's the opposite risk too, that the bight comes out from its own weight while you're standing on a ledge partway down the rappel (removing both your own weight and most of the rope's weight from the anchor). So you're also risking your life to save a sling. What does it say about me that I thought of my rope first?)

Good wrap up nartreb. Bottom line, stop experimenting and stick to the books

Sorry I understand exactly how it works, I was just wondering about safety. Safety should always be a number one concern. I was looking at ways to retrieve gear not because the $5 sling is worth the risk but to look at ways to leave routes looking clean and fresh, practicing leave no trace. Is there another way to rap down without having to feed your rope through the v-thread, that is clean