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Didn't Anker say the second step was 5.10? Neither Mallory or Irvine were climbing anywhere close to that in the 1920s, let alone at 28,000 feet.

Yes. Anker rated it a "solid 5.10" There is apparently and easier route up the step to the right of the crack Anker climbed but very exposed and the rock is rotten. There is also some speculation that the step was bypassed and that the axe found was a marker for this alternative placed there the day before by Mallory.

Not out of disrespect for them, (they were brave, great men, far ahead of their time), but they did not make it. Anyway it was a failure as they did not come down alive.

Climbwild might be somewhat right that we are wasting good cyberspace here: If we would pay as much attention to all the climbers that have died in the mountains, Summitpost would need a bigger server!

<i>Didn't Anker say the second step was 5.10? Neither Mallory or Irvine were climbing anywhere close to that in the 1920s, let alone at 28,000 feet.</i>

Yes, but the step can be bypassed. It was skied around on the first ski descent of the north ridge. We will probably never know.

Funny thing about Anker statement is that he initially said it was an easy 5.8 which Mallory would have no problem with but his he added it at the altitude it would feel like a 5.10.

In the last little while he has been saying it is 5.10 and not 5.8 so I guess he is embellishing a little over time (not surprising as he is in the business of making himself look hard)

As we do not know the condition of the step when Mallory was there who is to say what it was like. It could have been much harder or easer, For example, it could have been full of snow and they might not of even noticed it which has happened to a number of other parties over the years.

Just no way of knowing? Would be nice if they made it.

Of course I have an opinion on this subject, but am pleased that we don't <i>really</i> know the answer. I hope it stays that way, and that Somervell's camera was long ago devoured by a yeti.

<i>One interseting point he makes which I had not heard before is that Mallory always carried a picture of his wife on his climbs and then left the picture on the summit of any mountain he successfully climbed. </i>

Really? This makes the event more confusing because all the books I've read on the subject said that Mallory carried a picture of his wife up the mountain to leave on the summit, but that it <i>wasn't</i> found with the body in May 1999. This is one of the arguements used for the possibility of them summiting. Perhaps other sources are incorrect on the matter?

It's like this. Look only at the semantics. Disregard anything that happens after the summit has been made because it is immaterial. One rule: the summit. That's it.

The words are "First <b>Ascent</b>." And by ascent we're talking about <i>climbing</i> up the peak, not taking a helicopter to the top or to some point that's close to the summit thereby making the "climb" trivial.

If a first ascensionist were to die on the way down where does one draw the line that his/her success is now invalid?
Scenarios:
1. Climber makes it down to easier terrain but is mauled by a bear and dies? Does he get the FA? YES.
2. Climber makes it down and sails home (like the climbers of yore). Ship sinks in ocean. He drowns. Does he get the FA? YES.
3. Climber makes it down and gets hit by a car and dies right outside of his house 3,000 miles away from the summit he has just made the FA of? Does he get the FA? YES.

Furthermore, what if two (or more) people make the first ascent but one of them dies on the descent? Do you now list only the survivor as the first ascensionist? What if he could not have made it without the guidance/belay/leading of the guy who died?

With one rule (The Summit), it's easy to make a determination. Forget what Hillary said. He's biased anyway toward Mallory & Irvine.

If you want to create a new terminology such as "First Success" then have at it.

<a href=//www.everestnews.com/mallory2005/mallory2005update05022005.htm>Mallory and Irvine The Final Chapter Everest 2005: SNOW!</a>

Thank you. My sentiments exactly. First to climb a mountian is just that. The descent is something different.

If the first people to reach the moon died on re-entry, would people say "it didn't count"? Of course not.

I'm with you, Klenke - you climb it, it's your FA.

However I think Hillary can rest assured... There's very little that could be found now that would prove that Mallory either made it or didn't... I doubt we'll ever KNOW.....

<a href=//www.everestnews.com/mallory2005/mallory2005update05092005.htm>Mallory and Irvine The Final Chapter Everest 2005: We could use George Mallory's help</a>

<a href=//www.everestnews.com/mallory2005/mallory2005update05102005.htm>Mallory and Irvine The Final Chapter Everest 2005: STAY DOWN and no fixed ropes where we are going</a>

There are two things

- Succesfull ascent of a summit, if you reach the highest point, this condition is met.

- Concluding a climb successfully: To meet this one you have to come down alive again to the foot of the mountain, (Crashing with the airplane on the way home or something does not count, as it has nothing to do with the mountain and the climbing)

It might be that a summit is made, but that does not yet make it successfully concluding a climb: Dying on the way down is just bad mountaineering!

Irvine's axe was found on the ridge about 700 feet below where the 1999 M&I Expedition found the 1924 oxygen bottle, just below the First Step. General consensus is thatthe axe was not in the fall line with Mallory's body, depending on who you listen to, and when you listen to them.

Binary solution set, Irvine was separated from his axe on either the descent or the ascent. If on the descent, Irvine's body needs to be between the fall line below the axe and the 1924 camp 6 site. If on the ascent, Irvine's body is most likely in the same fall line as Mallory's. Could be anywhere, but that's the first place to look.

They dropped an O2 bottle just below the First Step. If they each carried two, the second bottles would have run dry above the Second Step, at today's rates of forward travel. I do not subscribe to Jochen Hemmleb's theory that M&I carried three bottles each. yes, his logic is impeccable, they might well have had that many to use, but the note his conclusion is based on does not prove, as he seems to believe, that they did take three, instead it offers substantive evidence that they took more than one each. "More than one" does not equal "three", and claims to that effect undermine scientific objectivity.

It's hard to give Conrad Anker's account of the Second Step's difficulty much credibility, solely because he changed his story. He said 5.8, no problem at first, then said 5.10, too hard for Mallory later. I prefer to give more weight to Conrad's belayer (Dave Hahn) on his climb since his story has remained constant. Hahn says Anker was up the crack before he could even set the belay.

With Mallory's goggles found neatly put away in his pocket, I prefer to believe they ascended the Second Step successfully and turned around at an indeterminate point above there, and that an accident occurred below the First Step during a night time descent.

With the first O2 bottle discarded below the First Step, the timing for a successful summit is tight. If Odell saw the pair ascending the Second Step at 12:50, they were approximately three hours off pace compared with Anker and Hahn. The summit pyramid has unstable snow conditions which can delay progress, and did, in the case of Hahn and Anker. My gut feeling is that M&I ran out of time and turned around, unsuccessful, somewhere above the Second Step, but given Mallory's fixation with the mountain, I do not rule out a successful summit, even after dark.

The Chinese expedition's confirmation of a second body on the steep part of the ridge between the First and Second Step's support this contention, as this is, generally in the fall line with Mallory's body. However, it raises significant questions as to the body discovered by them near high camp, notably that the position and confirmed presence of a sleeping bag do not match the conditions surrounding the discovery of Mallory's body.

If the Chinese account of the sleeping bag shrouded body do not refer to Mallory, then there was one body too many on the mountain in 1975, the one in the sleeping bag, Mallory, and the one on the ridge.

That's about all we can "know" for now. Given that E News interviewed the Chinese personally and that they have a team in place and ready to search at this time, we may find out more when and if another body (and/or camera) is discovered, if artifacts are found above the Second Step, or if they are found on the summit.

Until then, it's all just conjecture.