Hey that is a good one Excitable Boy! Added. I remember a situation where you suggested that, but I made a rappel just for me, and I ended up losing my ice ax, and a rope in the process and had to be talked calmly down over the bergschrund by you. Ah...good memories. :p
This was awesome. It is good to see the feeling shared across the world. I would add with respect to partners.
Don't mind sharing a sleeping bag, bivy ledge, or food with your partner. When you are up there you are one person, not two.
The person you take on alpine climbs, especially hard ones, should be someone you are willing to die for, and vice versa, not just on the wall. I think that if you don't trust that person as much or more than you trust yourself, you don't belong there with them.
Don't be afraid to try living for something.
Michael: this is a great idea for an article as there are many things in climbing which are "in the moment" that are difficult to discuss or convey to others in non-climbing venues (such as at parties or bars or the comfort of a couch).
I'm sure if I cogitate I can come up with some pertinent thoughts of my own.
Edits: The last sentence of #27 seems to end prematurely. Did you mean to append to it? In C1, saavy should be savvy.
Thanks Paul! This article is turning into a community effort, with so many great extra tips in the comments. Cogitate away in your mountain fastness and bring your broodings to the valley! :D Oh and I edited the points you mentioned, danke.
If's there's one thing I might add, try to bring items that double or triple for different uses, like a sleeping bag stuff sack that doubles as a pillow with your fleece, or taking the snow baskets off your trekking poles to use as tent anchors instead of carrying snow-stakes. Common sense I guess.
Hey, thanks! Most definitely I agree with you there. I'll add a few more: use your trekking poles as tent poles for a Betamid. Use your 3/4-length Thermarest as the "back padding" of your pack. For my BD Ice Pack, I can take out the little emergency sleeping pad, and stuff the Thermarest in it's compartment. It's as if I don't have to carry a pad! :D :D
I remember reading about a man filing down his toothbrush to nearly nothing. I was incredulous...why the hell is he brushing his teeth?!? :-P
I like it. Some good stuff I'll have to try like spending more time rock climbing in boots. Here is another peice of wisdom, "It is all training, and it's all the real thing." Meaning even the smallest adventure can cost you your life and even the most grand adventure will prepair you for the next.
sneaky steve - Jun 30, 2007 1:58 pm - Hasn't voted
I like your list a lot and certainly are going to try to use some of it's points. However, I don't agree with point nr 14
(My experiences have shown me over and over that light and fast is safer. How many times have we passed the party with bulging packs, though they camped at the base of the route and we came from the valley? The energy savings become enormous.)
There is a special feeling and beauty to camping out in the wild. On alpine trekkings me and my friends are 7 to 10 days totally independant and without meeting other people. Although we might climb less mountains, I think the experience is a lot greater. But this could be a personal thing.
Hi Bart, thanks for your feedback. Staying out in the wild for a night or 7 nights is a magical experience, and I don't want to discount that. And if you are doing a traverse of many peaks over days, sure, you can't help but travel heavier. I'm really trying to criticize bringing too much on a weekend trip.
Actually, with your long trips I'm sure you put as much thought into traveling light as anyone. But there is no doing without food, sleeping bag, etc. I did a 7 day trip (best trip of my life) with technical climbing and wrote about the equipment we carried here: http://www.mountainwerks.org/cma/2004/pickets/index.html
I think this is a good write-up. The only thing I would question a little is your first point, about a leader being as slow as he/she needs to be ("if it takes an hour - OK"). This doesn't really fit in with a number of your other points (e.g. "My experiences have shown me over and over that light and fast is safer") about doing everything to be as fast as possible. This I totally agree with. However, if you are climbing with a leader that is putting pro in every 3-5 feet on a big alpine route, the time this takes up , actually makes you (the other person) less safe (by quite a bit). I get your point though - people need to climb at a level that makes them comfortable, but again, this conflicts with a bunch of your other points (about simu-climbing, etc.). My bottom line is I wouldn't climb a big alpine route with a leader that wasn't reasonable fast and confident. I would climb a shorter (e.g. Grade II or III) route with them, but not something where their speed (or lack thereof) would put me in danger. This (slow leading) is actually a more common occurance in the alpine than one might think, and a major cause of epics. That's my two cents worth (maybe a little more than two cents). Cheers.
Good point, I agree with you completely. When I wrote that point I was really thinking about the point right after it: that the follower should move very quickly, willing to sacrifice style if need be in order to climb fast. I think I was looking for a way to say that, and expressed it by saying that the lead can go as slow as he needs to, but the follower has a certain duty to hurry if the occasion demands it.
You are right about the danger to themselves and others posed by such "leaders" on climbs. When I see that happen or hear about it, I'm kind of struck by the lack of self-awareness. As time drips by and the sun goes down, and the exasperated partner loses patience, at what point do they reflect on their performance?
I think of the audience for this document as folks with enough self-awareness to recognize that this kind of "leading" is beyond the pale.
When I was reading your (good) reply; it reminded me of this freind of mine that I took on his first big (17 pitches) alpine climb. I was going to do all the leading, and I had asked him to try to be as fast as he could seconding. He took me a little too seriously. I could barely keep the rope tight on him while he was seconding, he was so fast. By the end of the climb, my biceps were cramping up (no kidding) from trying to pull in the rope so fast. The last couple of pitches, I had to tell him to slow down, I was getting too tired belaying him. I think I saw him smile smugly.....
On the other hand, I've also had experience with slow leaders, and it is an awkward situation. Like you say, at what time do you say something, knowing that it may cause friction between the two of you, but at the same time, it's you who are in danger as well. This is a tricky situation, and worth some more discussion. I wonder how others handle it.
Yes it is tricky. I myself have never successfully conveyed to anyone that they are too damn slow and maybe shouldn't be out there at all unless they get better.
I have lots of patience with folks on that part of the learning curve, as long as they know they are really slow, want to keep improving and offer to give up leads if time pressure demands it.
The more info put out, the better. Very refreshing and helpful, even for an older climber like myself (well 38 isn't that old, yet, is it?)..LOL!
One point I'd like to add in regards to when and how to speak up about something to a climbing partner, especially while on the route, is never at any time should either climber feel that they can't speak up about anything that they feel is important to bring up. Both climbers (or all in the party) should be able to discuss ANY issues that come up that they are concerned about at the appropriate/safe time to do it. With age, comes experience over the years and with experience comes discretion on how to work together to keep everybody safe, alive and enjoying the routes taken (-:
The alpine grade is supposed to sum-up the various sources of difficulty on an alpine climb. You might be interested to know that contributors to camptocamp.org published an article explaining the alpine grade. I just translated it to english: http://www.camptocamp.org/articles/188413/en
mvs - Apr 15, 2007 4:10 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Another and a response to MichaelJHey that is a good one Excitable Boy! Added. I remember a situation where you suggested that, but I made a rappel just for me, and I ended up losing my ice ax, and a rope in the process and had to be talked calmly down over the bergschrund by you. Ah...good memories. :p
Aaron Dyer - Apr 16, 2007 5:50 pm - Hasn't voted
Yeah!This was awesome. It is good to see the feeling shared across the world. I would add with respect to partners.
Don't mind sharing a sleeping bag, bivy ledge, or food with your partner. When you are up there you are one person, not two.
The person you take on alpine climbs, especially hard ones, should be someone you are willing to die for, and vice versa, not just on the wall. I think that if you don't trust that person as much or more than you trust yourself, you don't belong there with them.
Don't be afraid to try living for something.
mvs - Apr 16, 2007 6:01 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Yeah!Thanks Aaron, those are thoughts from a good place, thanks for adding them here!
Klenke - Apr 16, 2007 8:29 pm - Voted 10/10
The ineffablesMichael: this is a great idea for an article as there are many things in climbing which are "in the moment" that are difficult to discuss or convey to others in non-climbing venues (such as at parties or bars or the comfort of a couch).
I'm sure if I cogitate I can come up with some pertinent thoughts of my own.
Edits: The last sentence of #27 seems to end prematurely. Did you mean to append to it? In C1, saavy should be savvy.
mvs - Apr 16, 2007 11:07 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: The ineffablesThanks Paul! This article is turning into a community effort, with so many great extra tips in the comments. Cogitate away in your mountain fastness and bring your broodings to the valley! :D Oh and I edited the points you mentioned, danke.
mvs - Apr 18, 2007 3:46 am - Hasn't voted
Re: C3Hey you have great text on your profile, thanks for sharing those thoughts! I think I'm wired in the same way.
gimpilator - Apr 18, 2007 9:04 pm - Hasn't voted
Great Article!Thank you, I learned a lot.
If's there's one thing I might add, try to bring items that double or triple for different uses, like a sleeping bag stuff sack that doubles as a pillow with your fleece, or taking the snow baskets off your trekking poles to use as tent anchors instead of carrying snow-stakes. Common sense I guess.
mvs - Apr 20, 2007 7:10 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Great Article!Hey, thanks! Most definitely I agree with you there. I'll add a few more: use your trekking poles as tent poles for a Betamid. Use your 3/4-length Thermarest as the "back padding" of your pack. For my BD Ice Pack, I can take out the little emergency sleeping pad, and stuff the Thermarest in it's compartment. It's as if I don't have to carry a pad! :D :D
I remember reading about a man filing down his toothbrush to nearly nothing. I was incredulous...why the hell is he brushing his teeth?!? :-P
mtnman455 - Apr 20, 2007 7:48 pm - Voted 10/10
YesI like it. Some good stuff I'll have to try like spending more time rock climbing in boots. Here is another peice of wisdom, "It is all training, and it's all the real thing." Meaning even the smallest adventure can cost you your life and even the most grand adventure will prepair you for the next.
sneaky steve - Jun 30, 2007 1:58 pm - Hasn't voted
SweeeetGood thoughts!
I like #10 and #20.
Bart Roskam - Jul 14, 2007 4:34 pm - Voted 10/10
Really good listI like your list a lot and certainly are going to try to use some of it's points. However, I don't agree with point nr 14
(My experiences have shown me over and over that light and fast is safer. How many times have we passed the party with bulging packs, though they camped at the base of the route and we came from the valley? The energy savings become enormous.)
There is a special feeling and beauty to camping out in the wild. On alpine trekkings me and my friends are 7 to 10 days totally independant and without meeting other people. Although we might climb less mountains, I think the experience is a lot greater. But this could be a personal thing.
mvs - Jul 16, 2007 5:38 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Really good listHi Bart, thanks for your feedback. Staying out in the wild for a night or 7 nights is a magical experience, and I don't want to discount that. And if you are doing a traverse of many peaks over days, sure, you can't help but travel heavier. I'm really trying to criticize bringing too much on a weekend trip.
Actually, with your long trips I'm sure you put as much thought into traveling light as anyone. But there is no doing without food, sleeping bag, etc. I did a 7 day trip (best trip of my life) with technical climbing and wrote about the equipment we carried here: http://www.mountainwerks.org/cma/2004/pickets/index.html
AJones - Nov 20, 2007 6:41 pm - Voted 10/10
I agree (mostly)I think this is a good write-up. The only thing I would question a little is your first point, about a leader being as slow as he/she needs to be ("if it takes an hour - OK"). This doesn't really fit in with a number of your other points (e.g. "My experiences have shown me over and over that light and fast is safer") about doing everything to be as fast as possible. This I totally agree with. However, if you are climbing with a leader that is putting pro in every 3-5 feet on a big alpine route, the time this takes up , actually makes you (the other person) less safe (by quite a bit). I get your point though - people need to climb at a level that makes them comfortable, but again, this conflicts with a bunch of your other points (about simu-climbing, etc.). My bottom line is I wouldn't climb a big alpine route with a leader that wasn't reasonable fast and confident. I would climb a shorter (e.g. Grade II or III) route with them, but not something where their speed (or lack thereof) would put me in danger. This (slow leading) is actually a more common occurance in the alpine than one might think, and a major cause of epics. That's my two cents worth (maybe a little more than two cents). Cheers.
mvs - Nov 21, 2007 6:04 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: I agree (mostly)Good point, I agree with you completely. When I wrote that point I was really thinking about the point right after it: that the follower should move very quickly, willing to sacrifice style if need be in order to climb fast. I think I was looking for a way to say that, and expressed it by saying that the lead can go as slow as he needs to, but the follower has a certain duty to hurry if the occasion demands it.
You are right about the danger to themselves and others posed by such "leaders" on climbs. When I see that happen or hear about it, I'm kind of struck by the lack of self-awareness. As time drips by and the sun goes down, and the exasperated partner loses patience, at what point do they reflect on their performance?
I think of the audience for this document as folks with enough self-awareness to recognize that this kind of "leading" is beyond the pale.
AJones - Nov 22, 2007 10:17 am - Voted 10/10
Re: I agree (mostly)When I was reading your (good) reply; it reminded me of this freind of mine that I took on his first big (17 pitches) alpine climb. I was going to do all the leading, and I had asked him to try to be as fast as he could seconding. He took me a little too seriously. I could barely keep the rope tight on him while he was seconding, he was so fast. By the end of the climb, my biceps were cramping up (no kidding) from trying to pull in the rope so fast. The last couple of pitches, I had to tell him to slow down, I was getting too tired belaying him. I think I saw him smile smugly.....
On the other hand, I've also had experience with slow leaders, and it is an awkward situation. Like you say, at what time do you say something, knowing that it may cause friction between the two of you, but at the same time, it's you who are in danger as well. This is a tricky situation, and worth some more discussion. I wonder how others handle it.
mvs - Nov 23, 2007 7:22 am - Hasn't voted
Re: I agree (mostly)Yes it is tricky. I myself have never successfully conveyed to anyone that they are too damn slow and maybe shouldn't be out there at all unless they get better.
I have lots of patience with folks on that part of the learning curve, as long as they know they are really slow, want to keep improving and offer to give up leads if time pressure demands it.
adventuretactical - Sep 24, 2009 8:33 pm - Voted 9/10
EXCELLENTE!!The more info put out, the better. Very refreshing and helpful, even for an older climber like myself (well 38 isn't that old, yet, is it?)..LOL!
One point I'd like to add in regards to when and how to speak up about something to a climbing partner, especially while on the route, is never at any time should either climber feel that they can't speak up about anything that they feel is important to bring up. Both climbers (or all in the party) should be able to discuss ANY issues that come up that they are concerned about at the appropriate/safe time to do it. With age, comes experience over the years and with experience comes discretion on how to work together to keep everybody safe, alive and enjoying the routes taken (-:
adventuretactical - Sep 24, 2009 8:35 pm - Voted 9/10
So TrueAlso, what Aaron Dyer said (-:
FabienenCordoba - Nov 8, 2009 6:47 am - Hasn't voted
The alpine grade explainedThe alpine grade is supposed to sum-up the various sources of difficulty on an alpine climb. You might be interested to know that contributors to camptocamp.org published an article explaining the alpine grade. I just translated it to english: http://www.camptocamp.org/articles/188413/en
TimB - Nov 18, 2010 12:24 pm - Voted 10/10
good articleSome very interesting stuff.
Thank you for sharing