...it is clear from your opening anecdote onward that tactfulness is not your strongest quality...or maybe I'm just upset because I read the title and was looking forward to an article about scientific research being performed in the mountains.
-Doug
What's funny is I didn't bother to read: Finding God in High Places until after reading this article. It doesn't bother or offend me to see religious material, I usually just ignore it. Or I just accept that it is part of our cultural heritage. Although I'm an athiest I have a Christmas tree with several nativity scene ornaments.
It does bother me that our political leadership is so confused on this issue. On one hand they reassure voters they are God fearing Christians to get elected, and on the other hand we have fights over Christmas decorations on government property! What would Jesus do?!
I like this article not for any slam it may have for religion. I like it because it is as blatantly athiest as people have taken for granted they can be blatantly religious. So please people, continue to proclaim you're love of God. I thought Finding God in High Places was well done. When I'm in the mountains however and any kind of situation starts to develop, I'll know it's up to us mortals to handle it.
I am sure it is the fav part for many of us. Living at the base of a rugged range which grows higher by a centimeter a year, I never cease to be amazed about the Nature's power manifested by these mountains. It just takes one peek out of the window!
Not sure if it was such a great idea to continue the controversy here on SP, but, folks, science is truly non-denominational, and nobody can blame the author for pushing one faith at the expense another. So here's my vote.
I'd love to add glaciology. However, I've never seen an active galcier and have hiked only two mountains with signs of glaciation: Washington (NH) and Katahdin(ME). I reckon I could have shown some glacial cirques and tarns.
I applaud Bob Smith's article and I would go further. The religions of 'faith' have subverted the potential of humanity down the ages. They have made our eyes blind, our ears deaf, our touch uncertain, and have made our other senses mundane and irrelevant. Religions make a big thing about 'miracles' do they not? And the miracles used as exemplars are all fictional (ie anyone could have made them up and we could all invent a few more quite easily). There is a miracle. A real miracle which nobody has invented. It's called 'Life on Earth' and it is inextricably bound up with the one called 'Life of Earth'. If anything is worth worshiping in true sincerity, humility and with great exultation it is this living planet Earth. It is but a wonderful accident, as indeed we all are. And it is not eternal, as indeed neither are we. But, briefly, we are one with the other. On yer knees! Give thanks to Gaia, and cherish her. She does not hide her secrets from us.
One must be either a hardcore religious fanatic or a hardcore atheist to say they do.
Actually none of the points you brought can prove that God doesn't exist. Simply because you can't prove it. Just like you can't prove that God exists. Just a matter of faith, you believe one or the other way or you admit you don't know.
Bob, I don't agree with most of your points but I respect your view. I also understand the purposefully provocative style of your article. All in all an interesting, well written voice in the discussion that started with the 'Finding God...' article (I gave my comment there too).
On the other hand I wonder how many of us had some traumatic experiences with religion. The best way to deter people from religion (not only Chiristianity) is the 'Bible-banging' attitude that tries to ram it down the throat. Very sad.
I have heard people argue against the ability to prove that gods do or don't exist in a similar way before. To me it is a rediculous undertaking. What we learn in logic classes, ethics classes and simple thinking is that we may consider the nature of god and come up with some things that are highly probable. Concerning the comment on believing one way or the other...this is silly. We don't choose to believe in math any more than we choose to believe we all die. It is. Science and god definately exclude each other. The whole inteligent design thing is misunderstood by most people and is usually taken up by believers in god that get tire of feeling silly in college biology classes. I do agree however that a great deal of folks get turned off further by over zealous believers in anything thumping heads...
There's still a possibility that evolution, all the laws of physics we already know and yet don't know, and science as a whole are parts of some intelligent design. You can't logically disprove it.
cheers,
kamil
Thanks for the great post. I had followed the other SP article and posts about finding god in high places, and had made a comment something along the lines of it would be interesting to see an article written by an atheist about his/her experience in high places. I myself, would have loved to write the article, but frankly wasn't brave enough. Thanks for doing so, I would give you an 11 out of 10 if I could. I've read the book by Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion" and he makes the point that it takes a very brave person these days (especially in the US) to admit that he/she doesn't believe in God (ever hear a politician admit he's an atheist). I'm also pleased that the majority of the posts from people who do believe in god are respectful (I wasn't entirely sure which way that would go, as religion can be an awfully hot topic?). I do hope that now that we have both points of view on SP, we can get onto articles that don't deal with religion.
shanrickv - Jan 12, 2008 10:24 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Good StartJim, you got it!!! So be it (Amen), He is risen (Hallelujah)!!!
Sorry, I could not resist.
Climb On!
Patrick
Mountain Jim - Jan 12, 2008 9:39 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Good StartBesides believing in religion, you've also apparently deluded yourself into believing you're clever & funny.
Better luck next time ... Peace, Jim
MoapaPk - Jan 15, 2008 10:15 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Good Start"religion is slowly on its way out."
Could you talk to Osama bin Laden about this?
"It took about 400 years for christianity to replace Paganism...and that was at the point of a sword"
Wow, Constantine was converted at the point of a sword?
"The inexorable appeal of science, logic, ...is putting an end to religion."
DesCartes and Pascal -- those illogical dumbasses!
Again, I'm not religious. I'm just inclined to play the Devil's advovate.
Charles - Jan 7, 2008 9:56 am - Voted 10/10
Well putYou make your point well - God = mumbojumbo. It doesn´t matter how quietly you move, you´ll never creep up on "Him" doing his work. :o))
Charles
BobSmith - Jan 7, 2008 10:40 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Well putThanks. For mumbo-jumbo religion certainly is!
drjohnso1182 - Jan 7, 2008 2:28 pm - Hasn't voted
I agree, but......it is clear from your opening anecdote onward that tactfulness is not your strongest quality...or maybe I'm just upset because I read the title and was looking forward to an article about scientific research being performed in the mountains.
-Doug
BobSmith - Jan 7, 2008 2:32 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: I agree, but...Thanks!
No, tact is not my strong suit.
MountainHikerCO - Jan 8, 2008 12:44 am - Voted 10/10
FunnyWhat's funny is I didn't bother to read: Finding God in High Places until after reading this article. It doesn't bother or offend me to see religious material, I usually just ignore it. Or I just accept that it is part of our cultural heritage. Although I'm an athiest I have a Christmas tree with several nativity scene ornaments.
It does bother me that our political leadership is so confused on this issue. On one hand they reassure voters they are God fearing Christians to get elected, and on the other hand we have fights over Christmas decorations on government property! What would Jesus do?!
I like this article not for any slam it may have for religion. I like it because it is as blatantly athiest as people have taken for granted they can be blatantly religious. So please people, continue to proclaim you're love of God. I thought Finding God in High Places was well done. When I'm in the mountains however and any kind of situation starts to develop, I'll know it's up to us mortals to handle it.
BobSmith - Jan 11, 2008 7:24 am - Hasn't voted
Re: FunnyTHanks!
Dmitry Pruss - Jan 8, 2008 12:30 pm - Voted 10/10
Sad that you missed glaciologyI am sure it is the fav part for many of us. Living at the base of a rugged range which grows higher by a centimeter a year, I never cease to be amazed about the Nature's power manifested by these mountains. It just takes one peek out of the window!
Not sure if it was such a great idea to continue the controversy here on SP, but, folks, science is truly non-denominational, and nobody can blame the author for pushing one faith at the expense another. So here's my vote.
BobSmith - Jan 8, 2008 5:01 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Sad that you missed glaciologyI'd love to add glaciology. However, I've never seen an active galcier and have hiked only two mountains with signs of glaciation: Washington (NH) and Katahdin(ME). I reckon I could have shown some glacial cirques and tarns.
brecon35 - Jan 9, 2008 1:45 am - Voted 9/10
worship not faithI applaud Bob Smith's article and I would go further. The religions of 'faith' have subverted the potential of humanity down the ages. They have made our eyes blind, our ears deaf, our touch uncertain, and have made our other senses mundane and irrelevant. Religions make a big thing about 'miracles' do they not? And the miracles used as exemplars are all fictional (ie anyone could have made them up and we could all invent a few more quite easily). There is a miracle. A real miracle which nobody has invented. It's called 'Life on Earth' and it is inextricably bound up with the one called 'Life of Earth'. If anything is worth worshiping in true sincerity, humility and with great exultation it is this living planet Earth. It is but a wonderful accident, as indeed we all are. And it is not eternal, as indeed neither are we. But, briefly, we are one with the other. On yer knees! Give thanks to Gaia, and cherish her. She does not hide her secrets from us.
BobSmith - Jan 9, 2008 7:51 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: worship not faithThanks!
kamil - Jan 9, 2008 10:43 am - Voted 10/10
Science and God don't exclude each other :)One must be either a hardcore religious fanatic or a hardcore atheist to say they do.
Actually none of the points you brought can prove that God doesn't exist. Simply because you can't prove it. Just like you can't prove that God exists. Just a matter of faith, you believe one or the other way or you admit you don't know.
Bob, I don't agree with most of your points but I respect your view. I also understand the purposefully provocative style of your article. All in all an interesting, well written voice in the discussion that started with the 'Finding God...' article (I gave my comment there too).
On the other hand I wonder how many of us had some traumatic experiences with religion. The best way to deter people from religion (not only Chiristianity) is the 'Bible-banging' attitude that tries to ram it down the throat. Very sad.
Happy climbing!
Kamil
BobSmith - Jan 9, 2008 7:50 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Science and God don't exclude each other :)Thanks!
awagher - Jan 10, 2008 2:03 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Science and God don't exclude each other :)I have heard people argue against the ability to prove that gods do or don't exist in a similar way before. To me it is a rediculous undertaking. What we learn in logic classes, ethics classes and simple thinking is that we may consider the nature of god and come up with some things that are highly probable. Concerning the comment on believing one way or the other...this is silly. We don't choose to believe in math any more than we choose to believe we all die. It is. Science and god definately exclude each other. The whole inteligent design thing is misunderstood by most people and is usually taken up by believers in god that get tire of feeling silly in college biology classes. I do agree however that a great deal of folks get turned off further by over zealous believers in anything thumping heads...
kamil - Jan 10, 2008 9:59 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Science and God don't exclude each other :)There's still a possibility that evolution, all the laws of physics we already know and yet don't know, and science as a whole are parts of some intelligent design. You can't logically disprove it.
cheers,
kamil
AJones - Jan 10, 2008 11:35 am - Voted 10/10
You got balls!Thanks for the great post. I had followed the other SP article and posts about finding god in high places, and had made a comment something along the lines of it would be interesting to see an article written by an atheist about his/her experience in high places. I myself, would have loved to write the article, but frankly wasn't brave enough. Thanks for doing so, I would give you an 11 out of 10 if I could. I've read the book by Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion" and he makes the point that it takes a very brave person these days (especially in the US) to admit that he/she doesn't believe in God (ever hear a politician admit he's an atheist). I'm also pleased that the majority of the posts from people who do believe in god are respectful (I wasn't entirely sure which way that would go, as religion can be an awfully hot topic?). I do hope that now that we have both points of view on SP, we can get onto articles that don't deal with religion.
BobSmith - Jan 11, 2008 7:20 am - Hasn't voted
Re: You got balls!Thanks!
Yes, THE GOD DELUSION is a fine book. Yes, it's frightening to be sane in the USA.
BobSmith - Jan 11, 2008 7:20 am - Hasn't voted
Re: You got balls!Thanks!