Sounds pretty drastic...especially the fact that in Columbia you run the risk of being shot without warning (!)...although I've always found that in Europe and in the USA, we're very privileged...everybody can hike, climb and "kraxeln" wherever he or she wants...when you think that in India, Pakistan, Nepal, China (especially in China!) and all the other nations containing the mountains of the Pamir, Karakoram, Himalaya, Transhimalaya, Tien Shan, Hindukush etc. you first have to climb one if not several mountains of bureaucracy reaching nearly Everest or Gasherbrum height before you even get to start the trek to the base camp of the mountain of your dreams...in Nepal and possibly in Pakistan as well still (though I think it's Afzal we should ask about this!) the mountains are still considered sacred, and the fear of infuriating the Gods by trodding on what is still considered their thrones is still there. When you think that Mount Kailash is still an absolute taboo, and probably never will ever be climbed...although if I'm really to be perfectly honest, something in me, at least concerning Kailash, agrees with this. I do believe very strongly that "the whole is more than simply the sum of it's elements"...why are we so fascinated and awestricken by the sight of a mighty ice-covered peak? When you analyze rationally, it's actually a pile of rock and frozen water we're looking at, isn't it? But our heart and our soul says a clear NO to this! Mountains are more...always have been, since the dawn of mankind and already way before that. What we all feel is...THE creation. Thus, the idea that the high mountains are the thrones of the Gods has something to it, I find, and if three (!) world (!) religions have seen Kailash already for thousands of years as being the navel of the world, the most sacred spot on Earth, then I am convinced that this is for a reason and should be honored and respected.
Of course the religious issue is surely not the only reason for so many restrictions and bureaucracy...after all, they charge also fees...!!!!
As to Brazil and Columbia, I don't know what to say, really...you know far more than I do, here...there must be reasons, be it either "restricted area" regulations or National Park regulations, I don't know. I didn't even know that there was such a problem about forbidden mountains in Brazil.
One example in the Alps though, as you probably know, is the Swiss National Park (which, oddly enough, does not cover the Bernese 4000ers or the Monte Rosa - Matterhorn area, but a mountainwise very insignificant area in the south-east of the country). The only peak one is allowed to go up is the highest one in that area, the Piz Quattervals (a mere 3164 meters high). Everything else is strictly forbidden! Those are the laws of the Swiss National park, the most rigorous of any part of the Alps.
As I say, a good article you wrote, with a lot of valuable information - thanks for bringing it to my attention in your reply!
Cheers and all the best to you, Paulo,
Eric
ahaha! Your comment is almost as big as the article itself heheheh
Well my friend, i can give you an simple and short answer to all the stuff you wrote: At the article, i wrote this: "as an historian, i can understand that".
I really do!
But what pisses me off is that drug dealers BS about damn drug crops...
And the problems we have here about all the prohibiton is just like the ones you told me about. Park adm rules, too much rules.
And there's another reasons...like idiots that don't take out their own garbage, and that makes the property owner (where some rock climbing area is in) angry, and after that they close their farm/ house to all rock climbers because of some stupid dirty bastard.
But mostly, the damn park adm. As i said before in the mountain pages, 80% of the summits from Itatiaia are forbidden! But i do them anyway, and doing so, i'm taking the risk of been arrested on worst case cenario, or in the best option, i'll probably have to pay a huge ticket!
And guess what? At dinner time last night, i saw at tv news some brazilian so called "indians" (if ou see what i'm talking about you'll get it. they not even look like indians!) go into a gunfight with the police! They closed a highway asking for money, of course. They shot a policeman 5 times and cut off the pinky finger of the poor policeman, trying to do his job! That was crazy!!! Well afterwords some other cops return fire and 3 indians got shot, but nobody died, including the "fingerless cop".
Well, that kind of problem started 510 years ago...
Anyway, thank you for reading and for the comment Eric!
Cheers my friend
Paulo
Hey Taco!
Sometimes that can be a big problem, but we always do it anyway so yep, we risk too much sometimes too, as i sad to Eric.
But it's not SO difficult like Colombia!
Cheers
between aspiring to climb mountains while balancing cultural obligations can seem insignificant at first, how does climbing a mountain take away from the native's ability to revere it as sacred? Isn't climbing sacred to some people? But it is important to offer respect to natives as the world slowly closes in on them, or they will disappear by means of assimilation, as you stated it seems like this is already happening. In America we have treated our natives with such disrespect we are shamed in their presence. So as brutal as it is to look upon a mountain you cannot climb, culture is equally important. Learn from our mistakes.
Anyhow two delightful articles in the last few weeks, thank you for giving us a look into Brazil through your eyes
You're absolutly right my friend. Again, as a historian, i know what you're talking about.
But, here in Brazil the concept of "indian" in its true sense died dozens of years ago along with thousands of true indians.
Today, they're most like me and you or anybody else, and they make use of the place they were born as an excuse for wrong actions, of course looking for easy money.
Culture is probably the most precious thing there is, but the so called "indians" here in Brazil disrespect it as soon as one chance presents itself.
Thank you for the fantastic comment and reading!
Best wishes
Paulo
Great words Fort, as usual of course.
Maybe what happens in Colombia is similar to what happens in Brazil. Everybody knows where the drugs and drug dealers are, but nobody does anything to stop it. Why? Because all of them make money with that. The damn drugs...
Maybe it's the same process in Colombia. i really don't know.
The thing is, here in Brazil there's a lot of APA (Área de Proteção Ambiental), parks with hundreds of rules such as Itatiaia. BUT, some politicians own properties inside the park!!!
They make rules to keep away people and the excuse is to "protect the environment".
I wonder when that same politician that own a big house inside the park flushes the toilet, where does the shit goes...
Well, eventually i'll visit Bogotá, i promiss to tell you if its really nice! :)
Cheers!
Paulo
obrigado pelo artigo Paulo. estou indo para Colombia nesta semana e estava pensando em subir uma dessas montanhas. Parece muito dificil. Voce conhece o "Cidade Perdida"? Acho que fica perto dos primeiros picos. Tem um caminhada de 5 dias para la.
EricChu - Nov 11, 2010 6:07 pm - Voted 10/10
Good and informative article!Sounds pretty drastic...especially the fact that in Columbia you run the risk of being shot without warning (!)...although I've always found that in Europe and in the USA, we're very privileged...everybody can hike, climb and "kraxeln" wherever he or she wants...when you think that in India, Pakistan, Nepal, China (especially in China!) and all the other nations containing the mountains of the Pamir, Karakoram, Himalaya, Transhimalaya, Tien Shan, Hindukush etc. you first have to climb one if not several mountains of bureaucracy reaching nearly Everest or Gasherbrum height before you even get to start the trek to the base camp of the mountain of your dreams...in Nepal and possibly in Pakistan as well still (though I think it's Afzal we should ask about this!) the mountains are still considered sacred, and the fear of infuriating the Gods by trodding on what is still considered their thrones is still there. When you think that Mount Kailash is still an absolute taboo, and probably never will ever be climbed...although if I'm really to be perfectly honest, something in me, at least concerning Kailash, agrees with this. I do believe very strongly that "the whole is more than simply the sum of it's elements"...why are we so fascinated and awestricken by the sight of a mighty ice-covered peak? When you analyze rationally, it's actually a pile of rock and frozen water we're looking at, isn't it? But our heart and our soul says a clear NO to this! Mountains are more...always have been, since the dawn of mankind and already way before that. What we all feel is...THE creation. Thus, the idea that the high mountains are the thrones of the Gods has something to it, I find, and if three (!) world (!) religions have seen Kailash already for thousands of years as being the navel of the world, the most sacred spot on Earth, then I am convinced that this is for a reason and should be honored and respected.
Of course the religious issue is surely not the only reason for so many restrictions and bureaucracy...after all, they charge also fees...!!!!
As to Brazil and Columbia, I don't know what to say, really...you know far more than I do, here...there must be reasons, be it either "restricted area" regulations or National Park regulations, I don't know. I didn't even know that there was such a problem about forbidden mountains in Brazil.
One example in the Alps though, as you probably know, is the Swiss National Park (which, oddly enough, does not cover the Bernese 4000ers or the Monte Rosa - Matterhorn area, but a mountainwise very insignificant area in the south-east of the country). The only peak one is allowed to go up is the highest one in that area, the Piz Quattervals (a mere 3164 meters high). Everything else is strictly forbidden! Those are the laws of the Swiss National park, the most rigorous of any part of the Alps.
As I say, a good article you wrote, with a lot of valuable information - thanks for bringing it to my attention in your reply!
Cheers and all the best to you, Paulo,
Eric
PAROFES - Nov 12, 2010 4:24 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Good and informative article!ahaha! Your comment is almost as big as the article itself heheheh
Well my friend, i can give you an simple and short answer to all the stuff you wrote: At the article, i wrote this: "as an historian, i can understand that".
I really do!
But what pisses me off is that drug dealers BS about damn drug crops...
And the problems we have here about all the prohibiton is just like the ones you told me about. Park adm rules, too much rules.
And there's another reasons...like idiots that don't take out their own garbage, and that makes the property owner (where some rock climbing area is in) angry, and after that they close their farm/ house to all rock climbers because of some stupid dirty bastard.
But mostly, the damn park adm. As i said before in the mountain pages, 80% of the summits from Itatiaia are forbidden! But i do them anyway, and doing so, i'm taking the risk of been arrested on worst case cenario, or in the best option, i'll probably have to pay a huge ticket!
And guess what? At dinner time last night, i saw at tv news some brazilian so called "indians" (if ou see what i'm talking about you'll get it. they not even look like indians!) go into a gunfight with the police! They closed a highway asking for money, of course. They shot a policeman 5 times and cut off the pinky finger of the poor policeman, trying to do his job! That was crazy!!! Well afterwords some other cops return fire and 3 indians got shot, but nobody died, including the "fingerless cop".
Well, that kind of problem started 510 years ago...
Anyway, thank you for reading and for the comment Eric!
Cheers my friend
Paulo
PAROFES - Nov 12, 2010 10:47 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Good and informative article!After all Eric,
We always feel like appease the god of the mountains, CROM! hehehehehe
PAROFES - Nov 16, 2010 12:23 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Ouch dude!Hey Taco!
Sometimes that can be a big problem, but we always do it anyway so yep, we risk too much sometimes too, as i sad to Eric.
But it's not SO difficult like Colombia!
Cheers
CSUMarmot - Nov 14, 2010 3:39 pm - Voted 10/10
The tradeoffs...between aspiring to climb mountains while balancing cultural obligations can seem insignificant at first, how does climbing a mountain take away from the native's ability to revere it as sacred? Isn't climbing sacred to some people? But it is important to offer respect to natives as the world slowly closes in on them, or they will disappear by means of assimilation, as you stated it seems like this is already happening. In America we have treated our natives with such disrespect we are shamed in their presence. So as brutal as it is to look upon a mountain you cannot climb, culture is equally important. Learn from our mistakes.
Anyhow two delightful articles in the last few weeks, thank you for giving us a look into Brazil through your eyes
PAROFES - Nov 16, 2010 12:29 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: The tradeoffs...You're absolutly right my friend. Again, as a historian, i know what you're talking about.
But, here in Brazil the concept of "indian" in its true sense died dozens of years ago along with thousands of true indians.
Today, they're most like me and you or anybody else, and they make use of the place they were born as an excuse for wrong actions, of course looking for easy money.
Culture is probably the most precious thing there is, but the so called "indians" here in Brazil disrespect it as soon as one chance presents itself.
Thank you for the fantastic comment and reading!
Best wishes
Paulo
PAROFES - Nov 16, 2010 12:39 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: In the American Southwest....Great words Fort, as usual of course.
Maybe what happens in Colombia is similar to what happens in Brazil. Everybody knows where the drugs and drug dealers are, but nobody does anything to stop it. Why? Because all of them make money with that. The damn drugs...
Maybe it's the same process in Colombia. i really don't know.
The thing is, here in Brazil there's a lot of APA (Área de Proteção Ambiental), parks with hundreds of rules such as Itatiaia. BUT, some politicians own properties inside the park!!!
They make rules to keep away people and the excuse is to "protect the environment".
I wonder when that same politician that own a big house inside the park flushes the toilet, where does the shit goes...
Well, eventually i'll visit Bogotá, i promiss to tell you if its really nice! :)
Cheers!
Paulo
Ze - Mar 2, 2011 4:18 pm - Voted 10/10
Santa Martaobrigado pelo artigo Paulo. estou indo para Colombia nesta semana e estava pensando em subir uma dessas montanhas. Parece muito dificil. Voce conhece o "Cidade Perdida"? Acho que fica perto dos primeiros picos. Tem um caminhada de 5 dias para la.