Good job attacking a complex issue, Jacob. To be sure, most of us ladies simply "get on with it" and climb however we wish without letting gender worries get in our way.
That being said, we do have a saying that reflects the gender ratio imbalance (numbers-wise) in our sport: The odds are good. But the goods are odd.
Ok, cheesy jokes of mine aside, this was a thoughtful piece. Nice work.
and obviously they haven't gotten out climbing in the right places... My ex- will often bring guys out and become the ropegun on .12 cracks. The woman living next door to her, Tamara often leads .12 cracks and sometimes will get onto scarey hard leads, like Equalizer (5.13a R). Then my old climbing partner Lisa climbs hard and climbs until she takes big whippers (on trad routes), and these women are just your normal working stiffs.....
I was really happy to see this insightful piece on the main page of summitpost. Bravo for making a little room for reflection. On a historical note, I certainly agree with you that misogynistic language and the gendering of boldness are not unique to climbing and extend far beyond its borders. However, the rhetoric present from the beginning of mountaineering has been that of man's domination of (feminine) nature. Judging by what I've seen and read, the concept that today's mountaineers and climbers have of their (our) sport emphasizes respect for, rather than conquering of, natural forces (writer Daniel Arnold is a good example). Yet shadows of the old themes persist in the way we accept conventional gender crap, as you've pointed out. Thank you for posting this,I hope many will read it and make some adjustments.
Alzada
Steph Abegg has put together a fairly comprehensive report based on the statistics reported in the AAJ's Accidents in American Mountaineering.
http://www.stephabegg.com/home/projects/accidentstats
Her graph of accidents by experience level is a little scary, but she does not compare by gender.
Another study, based on rescue statistics in Boulder, shows that males account for some 78% of accidents.
http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/publications/2012_WEMJ_RMRG_Rock_Climb_Accidents.pdf
Of course, this would need to be corrected for the higher percentage of climbers who are male.
As for how these factors interact, I can't say.
Everything else in Washington, and Oregon, and Squamish…
Index ratings are Index ratings, and i don't think they should be adjusted to fit with current standards, but Godzilla is still a sandbag.
Steck Salathe is awesome. Not as hard as people make it seem. My friend and I started climbing at about 10:30am and finished long before sunset. No bivy or any of that epic descent shit.
that this generation of climbers weaned in climbing gyms might feel that Godilliza is harder than face climbs with a similar rating, but heady? C'mon, that thing eats protection!
By "this generation" do you mean everyone below the age of 35? Most leading rock climbers today were gym climbers first…
It eats pro, sure, once you are 25 feet off the deck. most people consider it heady because in comparison to other 5.9s, it is fairly sustained and exposed once you leave the "my vagina got too big" flake.
Lets put it this way, i've led most of the other popular 5.9s at Index, and godzilla still stands out as being hard for the grade.
I thought Princely Ambitions was a scarier lead than Godzilla, and that short, overhanging off width thing on GNS was WAY harder. I guess I just likes cracks.
Really?? That's incredible! I thought that overhang on GNS was real easy. Amazing how each climber has strengths and weaknesses. I will agree Princely is scarier than Godzilla though.
Wait, by "overhanging off width thing on GNS" did you mean the first "pitch" of Aries, which is only 5.8 if you have large hands, or the super dirty split block above the sickle crack with a large bush right at the bottom?
got to disagree about princely though, its got one, admittedly rather exposed, 5.9 move with great rest stances on either side.
The overhanging offwidth I was referring to is called Block Buster on this topo http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/index/gnslab.gif, so yes, the 'super dirty split block above the sickle crack'.
Matt Lemke - Dec 9, 2013 12:24 pm - Voted 10/10
I remember that...At Godzilla that winter day. Good article!
Sarah Simon - Dec 9, 2013 9:09 pm - Voted 9/10
Thoughtful pieceGood job attacking a complex issue, Jacob. To be sure, most of us ladies simply "get on with it" and climb however we wish without letting gender worries get in our way.
That being said, we do have a saying that reflects the gender ratio imbalance (numbers-wise) in our sport: The odds are good. But the goods are odd.
Ok, cheesy jokes of mine aside, this was a thoughtful piece. Nice work.
Sarah
lisae - Dec 30, 2013 1:56 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Thoughtful pieceSarah, I have heard the same joke applied to astronomers....
CClaude - Dec 28, 2013 12:22 am - Voted 10/10
well writtenand obviously they haven't gotten out climbing in the right places... My ex- will often bring guys out and become the ropegun on .12 cracks. The woman living next door to her, Tamara often leads .12 cracks and sometimes will get onto scarey hard leads, like Equalizer (5.13a R). Then my old climbing partner Lisa climbs hard and climbs until she takes big whippers (on trad routes), and these women are just your normal working stiffs.....
Alzada R - Dec 30, 2013 12:47 pm - Hasn't voted
Thank youI was really happy to see this insightful piece on the main page of summitpost. Bravo for making a little room for reflection. On a historical note, I certainly agree with you that misogynistic language and the gendering of boldness are not unique to climbing and extend far beyond its borders. However, the rhetoric present from the beginning of mountaineering has been that of man's domination of (feminine) nature. Judging by what I've seen and read, the concept that today's mountaineers and climbers have of their (our) sport emphasizes respect for, rather than conquering of, natural forces (writer Daniel Arnold is a good example). Yet shadows of the old themes persist in the way we accept conventional gender crap, as you've pointed out. Thank you for posting this,I hope many will read it and make some adjustments.
Alzada
lisae - Dec 30, 2013 2:00 pm - Voted 10/10
I wonderif anyone has ever compared accident rates, by gender, to level of achievement.
jacobsmith - Dec 30, 2013 3:48 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: I wonderSteph Abegg has put together a fairly comprehensive report based on the statistics reported in the AAJ's Accidents in American Mountaineering.
http://www.stephabegg.com/home/projects/accidentstats
Her graph of accidents by experience level is a little scary, but she does not compare by gender.
Another study, based on rescue statistics in Boulder, shows that males account for some 78% of accidents.
http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/publications/2012_WEMJ_RMRG_Rock_Climb_Accidents.pdf
Of course, this would need to be corrected for the higher percentage of climbers who are male.
As for how these factors interact, I can't say.
lisae - Dec 30, 2013 11:19 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: I wonderThanks for the links!
ExcitableBoy - Jan 1, 2014 7:26 am - Voted 1/10
Godzilla sandbagged?C'mon, Godzilla is not sandbagged, it is text book 5.9. Everything else in Washington is soft. Go climb Steck-Salathe and see for yourself.
jacobsmith - Jan 1, 2014 10:03 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Godzilla sandbagged?Everything else in Washington, and Oregon, and Squamish…
Index ratings are Index ratings, and i don't think they should be adjusted to fit with current standards, but Godzilla is still a sandbag.
Matt Lemke - Jan 2, 2014 3:58 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Godzilla sandbagged?LOL you think Godzilla isn't sandbagged but you agree that the North Face of Burgundy Spire is 5.8?
I thought Burgundy was real soft...like 5.6-5.7 but Godzilla is certainly a little sandbagged!
mvs - Jan 13, 2014 2:13 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Godzilla sandbagged?It's true...if Burgundy is really 5.8 then Godzilla must be 5.10a. :p Or like, South Ridge of Cutthroat Peak, a 5.8? Naw.
None of that counts, the only thing that matter is that damn, I wish I could go climb Godzilla again!!
Matt Lemke - Jan 14, 2014 1:53 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Godzilla sandbagged?Yeah...I am luckily on the other end of the spectrum and wishing I can work up to climbing Godzilla soon ;)
Vitaliy M. - Jan 17, 2014 6:18 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Godzilla sandbagged?Steck Salathe is awesome. Not as hard as people make it seem. My friend and I started climbing at about 10:30am and finished long before sunset. No bivy or any of that epic descent shit.
ExcitableBoy - Jan 5, 2014 7:27 am - Voted 1/10
I'll concedethat this generation of climbers weaned in climbing gyms might feel that Godilliza is harder than face climbs with a similar rating, but heady? C'mon, that thing eats protection!
jacobsmith - Jan 5, 2014 8:53 am - Hasn't voted
Re: I'll concedeBy "this generation" do you mean everyone below the age of 35? Most leading rock climbers today were gym climbers first…
It eats pro, sure, once you are 25 feet off the deck. most people consider it heady because in comparison to other 5.9s, it is fairly sustained and exposed once you leave the "my vagina got too big" flake.
Lets put it this way, i've led most of the other popular 5.9s at Index, and godzilla still stands out as being hard for the grade.
ExcitableBoy - Jan 6, 2014 8:29 am - Voted 1/10
Patoatoe patahtoI thought Princely Ambitions was a scarier lead than Godzilla, and that short, overhanging off width thing on GNS was WAY harder. I guess I just likes cracks.
Matt Lemke - Jan 14, 2014 1:55 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Patoatoe patahtoReally?? That's incredible! I thought that overhang on GNS was real easy. Amazing how each climber has strengths and weaknesses. I will agree Princely is scarier than Godzilla though.
jacobsmith - Jan 14, 2014 3:00 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Patoatoe patahtoWait, by "overhanging off width thing on GNS" did you mean the first "pitch" of Aries, which is only 5.8 if you have large hands, or the super dirty split block above the sickle crack with a large bush right at the bottom?
got to disagree about princely though, its got one, admittedly rather exposed, 5.9 move with great rest stances on either side.
ExcitableBoy - Jan 18, 2014 7:31 pm - Voted 1/10
Re: Patoatoe patahtoThe overhanging offwidth I was referring to is called Block Buster on this topo http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/index/gnslab.gif, so yes, the 'super dirty split block above the sickle crack'.