I find the part about China, Mt Everest and Ulugh Muztagh a bit strange and confusing though.
Tibet was de facto an independent state between 1912 and 1950. Since 1950 Tibet is an integral part of China. Highest mountain: Mount Everest, 8850 m (29035 ft) – the highest point of the Earth. As it is also the highest mountain of China now, it means that in 1950 China actually lost its earlier country highpoint and got a new higher one.
Facts.
Tibet wasn't recognized as an independent state by any other nation.
China definitely didn't recognize Tibet as an independent state.
It's true what you state that Tibet was de facto an independent state, but in this case it was basically a matter of making their own decisions within a framework set by the Chinese. When they wanted to make decisions which weren't acknowledged by the Chinese...well, we all know what happened.
K2 is also located on Chinese territory. It's a border peak with Pakistan. Even if you take Everest out of the equation, K2, The Gasherbrums and Broad Peak are higher than Ulugh Muztagh, even if you use the old and wrong altitude.
Question: Exactly who regarded Ulugh Muztagh as the highest mountain of China?
Until 1950 the country highpoint of China was Mount Muztag, 7723 m (25338 ft), the highest peak of the Kunlun Mountains. The elevation of 7723 m is according to Encyclopaedia Britannica. According to Corax’s page of Kunlun Shan mount Muztag must be lower.
The mountain's name is Ulugh Muztagh. There are dozens of "Muztaghs" in those parts of China. The name means "Ice Mountain".
You don't even have to mention Encyclopedia Brittanica as they are dead wrong on this issue. It's their (and some other well known publications) fault the rumor of Ulugh Muztagh being that high lives on. See here please.
The ridiculously high altitude of the peak comes from erroneous measuring a very long time ago. Famous explorer Littledale miscalculated the peak's altitude over a hundred years back.
The peak is climbed and measured with modern technology so there's no doubt whatsoever anymore.
Thanks for reading the article and giving your comments with suggested amendments. I think that there can be long historical and political disputes about the independence or dependence of certain countries. Though the dependence of Tibet was really not acknowledged by China, as I wrote "De Facto" it was independent. This status was reinforced by the fact that there was no Chinese military presence in Tibet before 1950.
I found contradicting information on the height of Ulu Muztagh. I made my decision between the values with the help of Encyclopedia Brittanica. Of course I didn't mention that it's "dead wrong" because for me it was not obvious that it was dead wrong. I more considered is as a reliable source. But thanks for your comments now I know the background of the different numbers and the validation of the correct number.
Now let's see the question of K2. I have a detailed and not too old map (1998) of the area around K2. It it says that an approximately 7500 km2 are northeast of K2 is disputed between Paksitan and China. If the disputed area is considered as a Chinese area, then K2 is really on the border. If the disputed area is considered as an area belonging to Pakistan, then K2 is within the borders of Pakistan. My map says that administration is Pakistani there, so according to this finally it can't be considered as a Chinese peak. But I have no experience in K2: I have been only to Hong-Kong a few times and not at this area. How do you see: is K2 really on the Chinese border? Do you think that K2 can be considered as a Chinese peak with no doubts?
In my previous reply I didn't ask the right question. The real question is not the Pakistani-Chinese dispute of the last decades about the area between K2. The real question is if the same dispute existed between British India and China before 1950 (or before 1947 in order to be correct). My maps published before 1950 are not enough detailed for that. Do you have any information about it?
You're absolutely right about the Tibetan-Chinese dispute and the problem in general with border disputes. It was actually kind of thoughtless of me to bring up the issue as I did. We could probably discuss the matter for ever and not get to an absolute point anyway.
Ulugh Muztagh and its elevation. I can see your point. Usually (as far as I can judge) Encyclopedia Brittanica is a publication to trust. The Ulugh Muztagh case may be one of the few errors.
K2 is definitely on the border. If you want to climb it from the north side you're all the time on Chinese territory. The same go for three more peaks over 8000 meters. Broad Peak, Gasherbrum I and Gasherbrum II. Also the 7900 meter peaks Gasherbrum III and IV are located right at the border. I'm right now looking at an official Pakistani map.
Concerning the historical borders I can't tell you to 100% how the case has been. The only "actively disputed" area along that border is the Aksai Chin Plateau. India claims it, but China has administrated it for a long time. There have been talks about solving that border dispute for many years now. The solution might be to give up some claims from both sides. China recognizes the claims India has on some parts of Arunachal Pradesh and India in turn should then recognize China's claims on Aksai Chin. In 1996 it was all set (it appeared) and there were a lot of friendly hand shakes. In the end the whole thing went down the drain because other claims were thrown into the discussion. I can't recall all the details, but I know Sikkim, and India's "invasion" of it was discussed and also China's official claim of Tibet.
As far as I have understood the whole thing is that the main peaks in the Karakoram Range (mentioned above) was the crystal clear border in the area in question. I know for a fact that the borders in some places along today's borders haven't changed for a very long time. I have one of Sven Hedin's (the famous Swedish Explorer) books in front of me and he gives for example the Karakoram Pass as the border to India. Back in those times Xinjiang Province, where K2 and the other peaks are located, was called Chinese Turkestan.
Conclusion: K2 has the same status as Everest. It's a border peak of two countries.
Oh, I didn't see this second message until after I had answered your first.
See above for answers.
What we need here is a historian, or a specialist in Asian geography :)
Perhaps the chance for mistake is still smaller if K2 is mentioned as the highest peak of China mainland before 1950, rather than keeping Ulu Muztagh. So I modified the text. Thanks again for your comments
Corax - Oct 14, 2009 6:12 am - Hasn't voted
Exactly who?Interesting page.
I find the part about China, Mt Everest and Ulugh Muztagh a bit strange and confusing though.
Tibet was de facto an independent state between 1912 and 1950. Since 1950 Tibet is an integral part of China. Highest mountain: Mount Everest, 8850 m (29035 ft) – the highest point of the Earth. As it is also the highest mountain of China now, it means that in 1950 China actually lost its earlier country highpoint and got a new higher one.
Facts.
Question: Exactly who regarded Ulugh Muztagh as the highest mountain of China?
Until 1950 the country highpoint of China was Mount Muztag, 7723 m (25338 ft), the highest peak of the Kunlun Mountains. The elevation of 7723 m is according to Encyclopaedia Britannica. According to Corax’s page of Kunlun Shan mount Muztag must be lower.
See here please.
SzaniUherkovich - Oct 14, 2009 9:32 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Exactly who?Hi Corax,
Thanks for reading the article and giving your comments with suggested amendments. I think that there can be long historical and political disputes about the independence or dependence of certain countries. Though the dependence of Tibet was really not acknowledged by China, as I wrote "De Facto" it was independent. This status was reinforced by the fact that there was no Chinese military presence in Tibet before 1950.
I found contradicting information on the height of Ulu Muztagh. I made my decision between the values with the help of Encyclopedia Brittanica. Of course I didn't mention that it's "dead wrong" because for me it was not obvious that it was dead wrong. I more considered is as a reliable source. But thanks for your comments now I know the background of the different numbers and the validation of the correct number.
Now let's see the question of K2. I have a detailed and not too old map (1998) of the area around K2. It it says that an approximately 7500 km2 are northeast of K2 is disputed between Paksitan and China. If the disputed area is considered as a Chinese area, then K2 is really on the border. If the disputed area is considered as an area belonging to Pakistan, then K2 is within the borders of Pakistan. My map says that administration is Pakistani there, so according to this finally it can't be considered as a Chinese peak. But I have no experience in K2: I have been only to Hong-Kong a few times and not at this area. How do you see: is K2 really on the Chinese border? Do you think that K2 can be considered as a Chinese peak with no doubts?
SzaniUherkovich - Oct 14, 2009 10:44 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Exactly who?In my previous reply I didn't ask the right question. The real question is not the Pakistani-Chinese dispute of the last decades about the area between K2. The real question is if the same dispute existed between British India and China before 1950 (or before 1947 in order to be correct). My maps published before 1950 are not enough detailed for that. Do you have any information about it?
Corax - Oct 14, 2009 7:04 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Exactly who?You're absolutely right about the Tibetan-Chinese dispute and the problem in general with border disputes. It was actually kind of thoughtless of me to bring up the issue as I did. We could probably discuss the matter for ever and not get to an absolute point anyway.
Ulugh Muztagh and its elevation. I can see your point. Usually (as far as I can judge) Encyclopedia Brittanica is a publication to trust. The Ulugh Muztagh case may be one of the few errors.
K2 is definitely on the border. If you want to climb it from the north side you're all the time on Chinese territory. The same go for three more peaks over 8000 meters. Broad Peak, Gasherbrum I and Gasherbrum II. Also the 7900 meter peaks Gasherbrum III and IV are located right at the border. I'm right now looking at an official Pakistani map.
Concerning the historical borders I can't tell you to 100% how the case has been. The only "actively disputed" area along that border is the Aksai Chin Plateau. India claims it, but China has administrated it for a long time. There have been talks about solving that border dispute for many years now. The solution might be to give up some claims from both sides. China recognizes the claims India has on some parts of Arunachal Pradesh and India in turn should then recognize China's claims on Aksai Chin. In 1996 it was all set (it appeared) and there were a lot of friendly hand shakes. In the end the whole thing went down the drain because other claims were thrown into the discussion. I can't recall all the details, but I know Sikkim, and India's "invasion" of it was discussed and also China's official claim of Tibet.
As far as I have understood the whole thing is that the main peaks in the Karakoram Range (mentioned above) was the crystal clear border in the area in question. I know for a fact that the borders in some places along today's borders haven't changed for a very long time. I have one of Sven Hedin's (the famous Swedish Explorer) books in front of me and he gives for example the Karakoram Pass as the border to India. Back in those times Xinjiang Province, where K2 and the other peaks are located, was called Chinese Turkestan.
Conclusion: K2 has the same status as Everest. It's a border peak of two countries.
Corax - Oct 14, 2009 7:06 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Exactly who?Oh, I didn't see this second message until after I had answered your first.
See above for answers.
What we need here is a historian, or a specialist in Asian geography :)
SzaniUherkovich - Oct 15, 2009 4:34 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Exactly who?Perhaps the chance for mistake is still smaller if K2 is mentioned as the highest peak of China mainland before 1950, rather than keeping Ulu Muztagh. So I modified the text. Thanks again for your comments
BLong - Oct 17, 2009 12:15 am - Hasn't voted
Very interestingI really enjoyed reading this. Geo-political borders certainly are funny...
SzaniUherkovich - Oct 17, 2009 4:00 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Very interestingThanks for your comment. Actually I also enjoyed collecting all these data