Got to quibble with this one. Cleaning your hands after doing your business does basically nothing to protect *your* health. Anything living in your feces has already been in your mouth. Washing your hands is to protect *other* people who contact your hands or the stuff your hands touch (like a shared meal at camp).
Filtering protects *you* when *other* people (or their pets, or wild animals) have crapped too close to the water you're drinking.
It's possible that eating your own feces would re-establish an infection that would otherwise be extinguished (say, intestinal worms),and to be sure, you don't want fecal bacteria in some places your hands sometimes go (urinary tract, wounds). So keeping your hands clean is a good idea. (You don't want soil bacteria or hay bacteria in those places either.) But it's physically impossible to infect yourself with giardia or salmonella by eating your own poop, unless the giardia or salmonella was already in your intestine. I hope you don't need me to cite a source denying the spontaneous generation of organisms.
I wasn't talking about a source for spontaneous generation of organisms.
For example, it could be that there are bacteria in your lower intestine, maybe even including salmonella or giardia, that are not currently negatively affecting you. But introduction of them into your stomach or upper intestine might allow them to start causing problems. I don't know if that is the case or not, but if you had a good source it would certainly explain whether that were possible. If you don't have a source, simpler to just say that outright.
You're not going to prove or disprove such a broad proposition with just a few sources. You may want to start with a few basics, like how a bacterium could enter your lower intestine without passing through your upper intestine?
There is one way, it's called a fecal transplant. This is the intentional direct transfer of fecal matter from one person's bowels to the bowels of another person. It's performed when a patient's gut flora are no longer in normal balance, usually due to antibiotics. You could have the patient swallow the feces, but a) you'd have low efficacy, since many gut bacteria have great difficulty surviving the stomach [see the link about salmonella below] and b) patients are already pretty distressed about the "yuck factor". Here's a good layman's intro to fecal transplant: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/10/216553408/microbe-transplants-treat-some-diseases-that-drugs-cant-fix
Speaking of basics, giardia isn't a bacterium. (cite: http://www.dpd.cdc.gov/dpdx/HTML/Giardiasis.htm ) Like many protozoan parasites, it has a somewhat complicated life history, but if it's in your bowels, it's been in your stomach.
Salmonella *is* a bacterium, and its lifecyle is somewhat complicated by bacterial standards too (it can invade living cells), but the stomach is a very hostile environment for it (no surprise, you try bathing in a pH of under 2 sometime). It's actually a poor example for promoting the use of filters, because it's hard to get a salmonella infection from water; you usually have to ingest it with food. See http://www.nature.com/news/1998/981015/full/news981015-6.html
But if there's salmonella in your lower intestine, then there is or recently has been salmonella in your upper intestine.
And so on for any pathogen you care to name...
So you *don't* have even one source that says there is no health risk to eating your own fecal matter. It is just your own untested hypothesis. (I wasn't asking about sources on all that other stuff)
The other stuff is important, it makes clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. Got a single source that says there *is* a health risk from autocoprophagia?
(As I said, there is a very small risk of reestablishing an existing infection that would otherwise spontaneously resolve. But it's not going to make you sick if you aren't sick already.)
Autocoprophagia in humans is not well-studied. But read any study of, say, coprophagia in dogs or rabbits (two of the better-known examples, though many mammals engage in this habit), and they'll point out that the health risks of coprophagia stem from eating the feces of *infected* animals, not one's own.
One example of hundreds: http://www.furrycritter.com/health/dogs/Coprophagia.htm
"merely a habit which is disgusting to owners but causes no real problems for the dog who is eating it. "
You are the one making the claim, not me. Back it up with a medically credible source rather than your own hypothesis or you can just keep changing the subject.
Ha ha, look who's changing the subject. Nartreb is right to question your drawing some kind of connection or equivalence between filtering and "own filthy hands." Different issues.
I'm not changing any subject. Nor do I think there is a connection between filtering and cleaning your own hands, other than that both are intended to prevent pathogens from entering your system. But one doesn't affect the other. I never said otherwise. I only compared the risks.
I subsequently was just looking for some credible information that supported nartreb's assertion that your own feces is not a personal health risk. He was completely unable to do that but jpsmyth has found some useful documentation.
It is good news really. Always looking to reduce weight futher and if you can cut out the sanitary equipment then that saves about an ounce and if you can eat your own waste then why carry so much food for a trip.
His first post asserts that there is nothing unhygienic about putting your own feces in your mouth. That was all I questioned, and what he failed to support with any real documentation (but others did).
Or maybe you think I wrote this whole article because I knew I could draw out all the folks on SP who are ok with consuming feces.
I think you are looking for an imaginary opponent.
I've pared down my pack quite a bit this past summer and it's been a big win, but you've given me some ideas to take it even further. Thanks! In return, I have a tip for you. I bet you can save a whole ounce by making Paddles walk.
Chad, thank you so much for this article. The first thing I did was to print it so I can refer back to it quickly and have it ready in my favorite reading room in the house, and I don't have to tell you where that is.
Following our previous discussions on this subject, I have become a pest at mountaineering shops asking questions and looking at weights of everything. But, your specific pointers are giving me a clear path to follow. Thanks again Chad.
Ha! Well I'm glad I have made the reading room Marc! SP should have a designation for that.
I'm sure glad it is helpful. I hope at least gives you and other folks some possible target weights, or at least something to compare to or think about when looking where the greatest opportunities are versus current gear. Cost can get in the way too, but some areas have cheap options too... like water bottles!
nartreb - Sep 13, 2013 3:03 pm - Hasn't voted
filterGot to quibble with this one. Cleaning your hands after doing your business does basically nothing to protect *your* health. Anything living in your feces has already been in your mouth. Washing your hands is to protect *other* people who contact your hands or the stuff your hands touch (like a shared meal at camp).
Filtering protects *you* when *other* people (or their pets, or wild animals) have crapped too close to the water you're drinking.
mrchad9 - Sep 13, 2013 3:15 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterAre you saying it is not a health risk to eat your own fecal matter or to have it contaminate your own food?
Interesting... I've never heard of that. Do you have a source?
nartreb - Sep 15, 2013 5:50 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterIt's possible that eating your own feces would re-establish an infection that would otherwise be extinguished (say, intestinal worms),and to be sure, you don't want fecal bacteria in some places your hands sometimes go (urinary tract, wounds). So keeping your hands clean is a good idea. (You don't want soil bacteria or hay bacteria in those places either.) But it's physically impossible to infect yourself with giardia or salmonella by eating your own poop, unless the giardia or salmonella was already in your intestine. I hope you don't need me to cite a source denying the spontaneous generation of organisms.
mrchad9 - Sep 15, 2013 6:06 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterI wasn't talking about a source for spontaneous generation of organisms.
For example, it could be that there are bacteria in your lower intestine, maybe even including salmonella or giardia, that are not currently negatively affecting you. But introduction of them into your stomach or upper intestine might allow them to start causing problems. I don't know if that is the case or not, but if you had a good source it would certainly explain whether that were possible. If you don't have a source, simpler to just say that outright.
nartreb - Sep 15, 2013 9:12 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterYou're not going to prove or disprove such a broad proposition with just a few sources. You may want to start with a few basics, like how a bacterium could enter your lower intestine without passing through your upper intestine?
There is one way, it's called a fecal transplant. This is the intentional direct transfer of fecal matter from one person's bowels to the bowels of another person. It's performed when a patient's gut flora are no longer in normal balance, usually due to antibiotics. You could have the patient swallow the feces, but a) you'd have low efficacy, since many gut bacteria have great difficulty surviving the stomach [see the link about salmonella below] and b) patients are already pretty distressed about the "yuck factor". Here's a good layman's intro to fecal transplant: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/10/216553408/microbe-transplants-treat-some-diseases-that-drugs-cant-fix
Speaking of basics, giardia isn't a bacterium. (cite: http://www.dpd.cdc.gov/dpdx/HTML/Giardiasis.htm ) Like many protozoan parasites, it has a somewhat complicated life history, but if it's in your bowels, it's been in your stomach.
Salmonella *is* a bacterium, and its lifecyle is somewhat complicated by bacterial standards too (it can invade living cells), but the stomach is a very hostile environment for it (no surprise, you try bathing in a pH of under 2 sometime). It's actually a poor example for promoting the use of filters, because it's hard to get a salmonella infection from water; you usually have to ingest it with food. See http://www.nature.com/news/1998/981015/full/news981015-6.html
But if there's salmonella in your lower intestine, then there is or recently has been salmonella in your upper intestine.
And so on for any pathogen you care to name...
mrchad9 - Sep 15, 2013 9:25 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterSo you *don't* have even one source that says there is no health risk to eating your own fecal matter. It is just your own untested hypothesis. (I wasn't asking about sources on all that other stuff)
Thank you for trying though.
nartreb - Sep 16, 2013 12:22 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterThe other stuff is important, it makes clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. Got a single source that says there *is* a health risk from autocoprophagia?
(As I said, there is a very small risk of reestablishing an existing infection that would otherwise spontaneously resolve. But it's not going to make you sick if you aren't sick already.)
Autocoprophagia in humans is not well-studied. But read any study of, say, coprophagia in dogs or rabbits (two of the better-known examples, though many mammals engage in this habit), and they'll point out that the health risks of coprophagia stem from eating the feces of *infected* animals, not one's own.
One example of hundreds: http://www.furrycritter.com/health/dogs/Coprophagia.htm
"merely a habit which is disgusting to owners but causes no real problems for the dog who is eating it. "
mrchad9 - Sep 16, 2013 12:47 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterYou are the one making the claim, not me. Back it up with a medically credible source rather than your own hypothesis or you can just keep changing the subject.
Fletch - Oct 10, 2013 2:10 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: filter^^^ This whole back and forth is awesome by the way...
jpsmyth - Oct 15, 2013 9:25 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterAnd because it is so awesome,I'll add fuel to the fire:
http://gawker.com/5985723/can-you-eat-your-own-poop
chugach mtn boy - Oct 20, 2013 2:10 am - Voted 10/10
Re: filterHa ha, look who's changing the subject. Nartreb is right to question your drawing some kind of connection or equivalence between filtering and "own filthy hands." Different issues.
mrchad9 - Oct 21, 2013 12:48 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: filterI'm not changing any subject. Nor do I think there is a connection between filtering and cleaning your own hands, other than that both are intended to prevent pathogens from entering your system. But one doesn't affect the other. I never said otherwise. I only compared the risks.
I subsequently was just looking for some credible information that supported nartreb's assertion that your own feces is not a personal health risk. He was completely unable to do that but jpsmyth has found some useful documentation.
It is good news really. Always looking to reduce weight futher and if you can cut out the sanitary equipment then that saves about an ounce and if you can eat your own waste then why carry so much food for a trip.
chugach mtn boy - Oct 22, 2013 1:43 am - Voted 10/10
Re: filterSaves on wag bags, too ;)
Actually I was just chuckling at the way you so smoothly set up a straw man to have your righteous argument with.
mrchad9 - Oct 22, 2013 1:54 am - Hasn't voted
Re: filterHis first post asserts that there is nothing unhygienic about putting your own feces in your mouth. That was all I questioned, and what he failed to support with any real documentation (but others did).
Or maybe you think I wrote this whole article because I knew I could draw out all the folks on SP who are ok with consuming feces.
I think you are looking for an imaginary opponent.
ZeeJay - Sep 14, 2013 11:23 am - Voted 10/10
WeightI've pared down my pack quite a bit this past summer and it's been a big win, but you've given me some ideas to take it even further. Thanks! In return, I have a tip for you. I bet you can save a whole ounce by making Paddles walk.
Marcsoltan - Sep 14, 2013 11:38 am - Voted 10/10
Re: WeightVery funny ZeeJay.
mrchad9 - Sep 15, 2013 9:41 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: WeightAwesome! I hope you find something useful.
Saving another ounce sounds like a great idea to me. Well..... I'm hearing the muffled rumblings of someone not doing his own approaches.
Poor form Paddles!
Marcsoltan - Sep 14, 2013 11:44 am - Voted 10/10
You're the man!Chad, thank you so much for this article. The first thing I did was to print it so I can refer back to it quickly and have it ready in my favorite reading room in the house, and I don't have to tell you where that is.
Following our previous discussions on this subject, I have become a pest at mountaineering shops asking questions and looking at weights of everything. But, your specific pointers are giving me a clear path to follow. Thanks again Chad.
mrchad9 - Sep 15, 2013 8:07 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: You're the man!Ha! Well I'm glad I have made the reading room Marc! SP should have a designation for that.
I'm sure glad it is helpful. I hope at least gives you and other folks some possible target weights, or at least something to compare to or think about when looking where the greatest opportunities are versus current gear. Cost can get in the way too, but some areas have cheap options too... like water bottles!
Bubba Suess - Oct 1, 2013 2:43 am - Voted 10/10
ExhaustiveThis is a fantastic article and it has given me a lot to chew on...and spend money on too.