Part of the acrimony in discussions of AMS is due to a simple issue: AMS is very broadly defined. Some people subconsciously think of the serious issues like HAPE and HACE, and those indeed may have no tie to one's physical conditioning.

But if a person reports of being out-of-breath at altitude, feeling ill after pushing too hard, is that AMS? Medscape vaguely says, "Altitude illness refers to a group of syndromes that result from hypoxia." If your muscles can use oxygen more efficiently, you are less likely to suffer some effects of apoxia, barring HAPE and HACE. After you get in shape, you may try to push harder, and eventually come up to the same barrier.

I see people at the gym or track who get sick simply because they push too hard.

WyomingSummits wrote:The only altitude effects I've suffered is lethargy and digestive/bowel issues, and dehydration. I figure dehydration prob caused the first two. I really like the Camelback elixir electrolyte tabs. I sweat like a hooker in church so I use those to keep my balances in line. Otherwise I cramp like a beast. Other than that, never had the more common altitude issues.....knock on wood. Living at 5k prob helps a bit.

i always get the second one you mentioned, no matter what, and i hydrate religiously. in general (don't know what your specific issue is) that symptom is definitely caused by altitude.

also, +1 on the elixir tabs. love those.

peninsula wrote:
Hydration, conditioning, elevation gain... all of those can be "administered" with objectivity to benefit minimizing AMS on any level... from mild headaches and insomnia to full blown HAPE/HACE. It seems most of us agree on those points. But, whenever the subject of drugs is mentioned, look out!

i won't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not an issue of drugs, it's an issue of using them inappropriately or irresponsibly. the second indicator for diamox after all is people who have a demonstrated history of having a hard time adapting to altitude, and you seem to meet that criteria. i don't think anyone would argue that it is not likely appropriate to use in your case; i certainly wouldn't.

MarkDidier wrote:(BTW.. I have friends that live in Tempe. When I get back out there would love to hit Four Peaks or the Superstitons again!)

Shoot me a pm when you are in the area (I work in Tempe and live close by) as I would like to go back to Four Peaks too and have not made it to the Superstitons yet since moving here.

bscott wrote:

WyomingSummits wrote:The only altitude effects I've suffered is lethargy and digestive/bowel issues, and dehydration. I figure dehydration prob caused the first two. I really like the Camelback elixir electrolyte tabs. I sweat like a hooker in church so I use those to keep my balances in line. Otherwise I cramp like a beast. Other than that, never had the more common altitude issues.....knock on wood. Living at 5k prob helps a bit.

i always get the second one you mentioned, no matter what, and i hydrate religiously. in general (don't know what your specific issue is) that symptom is definitely caused by altitude.

Well, something else useful from this discussion. I have a friend whose main complaints about going to altitude are... "bowel issues." Or to put it discreetly, too much too often, low vicosity, in areas where there isn't much physical cover. These "issues" have been enough to keep him below 11,000'. I had never heard of anyone else having such a problem, so I figured he just wasn't eating a proper diet at altitude, and so forth. Now I'll be more sympathetic.

MoapaPk wrote:

bscott wrote:

WyomingSummits wrote:The only altitude effects I've suffered is lethargy and digestive/bowel issues, and dehydration. I figure dehydration prob caused the first two. I really like the Camelback elixir electrolyte tabs. I sweat like a hooker in church so I use those to keep my balances in line. Otherwise I cramp like a beast. Other than that, never had the more common altitude issues.....knock on wood. Living at 5k prob helps a bit.

i always get the second one you mentioned, no matter what, and i hydrate religiously. in general (don't know what your specific issue is) that symptom is definitely caused by altitude.

Well, something else useful from this discussion. I have a friend whose main complaints about going to altitude are... "bowel issues." Or to put it discreetly, too much too often, low vicosity, in areas where there isn't much physical cover. These "issues" have been enough to keep him below 11,000'. I had never heard of anyone else having such a problem, so I figured he just wasn't eating a proper diet at altitude, and so forth. Now I'll be more sympathetic.

Yeah, it's strange. It's not like I have to go every minute, but definitely way more than normal especially at night. I've noticed I really have to avoid fruit and that the better hydrated I am, the less likely it is that it'll happen. Hydration has to start 2 days prior to a trip for most people. If you start a trip slightly dehydrated then it's nearly impossible to catch up. I just read a study on Ginko Biloba helping reduce AMS if taken twice a day for 5 days prior to a trip. Anyone have any experience with this?

MoapaPk wrote:Part of the acrimony in discussions of AMS is due to a simple issue: AMS is very broadly defined. Some people subconsciously think of the serious issues like HAPE and HACE, and those indeed may have no tie to one's physical conditioning.

But if a person reports of being out-of-breath at altitude, feeling ill after pushing too hard, is that AMS? Medscape vaguely says, "Altitude illness refers to a group of syndromes that result from hypoxia." If your muscles can use oxygen more efficiently, you are less likely to suffer some effects of apoxia, barring HAPE and HACE. After you get in shape, you may try to push harder, and eventually come up to the same barrier.

I see people at the gym or track who get sick simply because they push too hard.

The altitude clinic in Telluride says the same thing.....that fitness does not prevent AMS, it simply allows someone to push through it easier. Fitness can help mask it in a way, but many top level pro athletes have developed AMS.....so if pro level fitness obviously wasn't enough to prevent it for them, I doubt the average Joe's level of fitness will help. However, it DOES prevent overexertion symptoms which many assume is due to altitude. Sometimes altitude becomes the scapegoat for poor fitness.

jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:At this point, I think it's safe to say, the OP is thoroughly confused

I think the OP was confused in the first place, if s/he wasn't a troll. I had a hard buying the genuineness of 'gee, I can hike no problem at sea level, but at altitude, it's hard'. Plus, funnyman hasn't chimed back in since the original post.

fatdad wrote:

jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:At this point, I think it's safe to say, the OP is thoroughly confused

I think the OP was confused in the first place, if s/he wasn't a troll. I had a hard buying the genuineness of 'gee, I can hike no problem at sea level, but at altitude, it's hard'. Plus, funnyman hasn't chimed back in since the original post.

i'm amused you think I am a troll. Why do you think that? And what makes you think what I said isn't true? I just said that I did a 12.5 mile hike nonstop the week prior at sea level with zero issues. I am relatively fit. I am still confused as to why you think what I posted classifies as "unbelievable", what's so unbelievable about it

In my case, I don't even know if what I felt was infact AMS... I said I just felt weak and extremely exhausted and that caught me by surprise, of course I know I would lose some of my ability at that altitude but I did not think it would be so drastic. Also, now I have analyzed my climb on Strava and parts of it were infact a 30+% grade, that's not easy at that altitude.

It seems to follow common sense that physical fitness would help a great deal, not preventing AMS but if you're a 9/10 and lose 40% of your ability you're at 5.4/10 and that may still be good enough to make it to the summit, if you're a 5 to begin with and lose 40% you're now at 3 and that may result in failure to summit.

I have also done some reading on the net and it looks like a mild headache is very common for everyone at that altitude and may not necessarily indicate a case of AMS.

And now that I did my analysis, I think I went about the whole hike wrong. First and foremost, I should've camped out at the trailhead at 11600'... as someone else pointed out on this thread camping at 8'500 ft barely qualifies as acclimatization LOL!, then I should've started the hike way early, like at 6am stead of 9am (and felt the need to rush) and taken at least 20 min breaks every 1000ft of ascent... live and learn

The question here is... given sufficient time will everyone eventually acclimatize to altitude? or do some people just never do?

funnyman7878 wrote:
The question here is... given sufficient time will everyone eventually acclimatize to altitude? or do some people just never do?

For mild manifestations of AMS (insomnia, headaches, and nausea are all mild forms of AMS) the vast majority of people will acclimate after two or three days at a given altitude. However, if dealing with more severe manifestations like pulmonary and cerebral edema, a return to lower elevations is mandated. It takes about five days before an individual will start producing extra oxygen-carrying red blood cells, and that is when one's endurance will start to improve to what can be had closer to sea level.

WyomingSummits wrote:Yeah, it's strange. It's not like I have to go every minute, but definitely way more than normal especially at night. I've noticed I really have to avoid fruit and that the better hydrated I am, the less likely it is that it'll happen. Hydration has to start 2 days prior to a trip for most people. If you start a trip slightly dehydrated then it's nearly impossible to catch up. I just read a study on Ginko Biloba helping reduce AMS if taken twice a day for 5 days prior to a trip. Anyone have any experience with this?

While some earlier studies indicated gb helped, this better-controlled study suggest it may not, but just for the physiologic factors measured.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694514/

I believe Ginko has pretty much been discredited as the active ingredient is never standardised in whatever form it is dispensed thus making trials of its effect very hard to prove either way.

funnyman7878 wrote:

fatdad wrote:

jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:At this point, I think it's safe to say, the OP is thoroughly confused

I think the OP was confused in the first place, if s/he wasn't a troll. I had a hard buying the genuineness of 'gee, I can hike no problem at sea level, but at altitude, it's hard'. Plus, funnyman hasn't chimed back in since the original post.

i'm amused you think I am a troll. Why do you think that? And what makes you think what I said isn't true? I just said that I did a 12.5 mile hike nonstop the week prior at sea level with zero issues. I am relatively fit. I am still confused as to why you think what I posted classifies as "unbelievable", what's so unbelievable about it

In my case, I don't even know if what I felt was infact AMS... I said I just felt weak and extremely exhausted and that caught me by surprise, of course I know I would lose some of my ability at that altitude but I did not think it would be so drastic. Also, now I have analyzed my climb on Strava and parts of it were infact a 30+% grade, that's not easy at that altitude.

It seems to follow common sense that physical fitness would help a great deal, not preventing AMS but if you're a 9/10 and lose 40% of your ability you're at 5.4/10 and that may still be good enough to make it to the summit, if you're a 5 to begin with and lose 40% you're now at 3 and that may result in failure to summit.

I have also done some reading on the net and it looks like a mild headache is very common for everyone at that altitude and may not necessarily indicate a case of AMS.

And now that I did my analysis, I think I went about the whole hike wrong. First and foremost, I should've camped out at the trailhead at 11600'... as someone else pointed out on this thread camping at 8'500 ft barely qualifies as acclimatization LOL!, then I should've started the hike way early, like at 6am stead of 9am (and felt the need to rush) and taken at least 20 min breaks every 1000ft of ascent... live and learn

The question here is... given sufficient time will everyone eventually acclimatize to altitude? or do some people just never do?

Some acclimate, some stay in that state, and a few progress to pulmonary edema. You don't want to stick around for the latter.....

lol@jesu, is it advisable to hike to that altitude alone? well, I guess that is an entirely different topic!!!

From what I have read Diamox just forces the body to do exactly what the body will eventually do to acclimatize anyway which is to stimulate the excretion of bicarbonate from the kidneys. Since the body's altitude detection mechanism is slower it may be wise to give the body a head start by using Diamox.

funnyman7878 wrote:lol@jesu, is it advisable to hike to that altitude alone? well, I guess that is an entirely different topic!!!

From what I have read Diamox just forces the body to do exactly what the body will eventually do to acclimatize anyway which is to stimulate the excretion of bicarbonate from the kidneys. Since the body's altitude detection mechanism is slower it may be wise to give the body a head start by using Diamox.

I hike to that altitude alone all the time.....but my heart isnt banging in my chest like a marching band.