It is astounding how many times a handline over a bush or rock will save your ass.
http://hwstock.org/bish/html/IMG_7573.htm

I've been at the top of a 5.6 pitch when a friend cramped up and couldn't bend his knee. OK, time for a Munter Hitch rappel off 15mm webbing. Practice this improbable stuff beforehand, and you will impress folks who think you are amazingly prescient, when in reality you are just a dumb f*ck who thought ahead. ;^)

I guess the new question is, if youre sure footed and comfortable on class 4, how much harder is something 5.0-5.2? Is it something most good climbers would forgo roping up for? I'm not talking something with multiple pitches and exposure, just something that might require a few climbing moves and thats it.

CSUMarmot specifically asked if using a rope means that you also need to bring a bunch of other stuff to place in cracks...

CSUMarmot wrote:It means bring a rope and bunch of other stuff to place in cracks or whatever.

You misinformed him with an affirmative response...

ExcitableBoy wrote:Pretty much. A rope doesn't do much good without gear.

Slings are carabiners are not gear you place in cracks. Nuts and cams are. And nuts and cams are not needed in many cases on class 4 and easy class 5 climbs (either ascending or descending) to make the possession of a rope very useful for some individuals.

Using a rope does NOT mean you need to bring a bunch of other stuff to place in cracks.

CSUMarmot wrote:I guess the new question is, if youre sure footed and comfortable on class 4, how much harder is something 5.0-5.2?

Class 4 and class 5.0-5.2 are the same.

CSUMarmot wrote:I guess the new question is, if you're sure footed and comfortable on class 4, how much harder is something 5.0-5.2? Is it something most good climbers would forgo roping up for? I'm not talking something with multiple pitches and exposure, just something that might require a few climbing moves and thats it.

A lot of DPS or SPS "4th class" from before 1970 would be class 5 today. Many times I've rapped down class 4 or 5.x that I previously upclimbed. It's just not worth the possibility of having people tumble to their deaths, when it is often so simple to rap off.

Really, practice with "desert pro" -- a 10' 15mm loop with a water knot. 95% of the time you will just be able to shake the webbing sling loose after a downclimb.

EDIT: add modesty and reality! Stronger climbers have belayed me often, and I've belayed folks who had a harder time with some quirk in the route.

mrchad9 wrote:CSUMarmot specifically asked if using a rope means that you also need to bring a bunch of other stuff to place in cracks...

CSUMarmot wrote:It means bring a rope and bunch of other stuff to place in cracks or whatever.

You misinformed him with an affirmative response...

ExcitableBoy wrote:Pretty much. A rope doesn't do much good without gear.

Slings are carabiners are not gear you place in cracks. Nuts and cams are. And nuts and cams are not needed in many cases on class 4 and easy class 5 climbs (either ascending or descending) to make the possession of a rope very useful for some individuals.

Using a rope does NOT mean you need to bring a bunch of other stuff to place in cracks.

Fair enough.

Pssssssssst.... Norman pounded a shitload of pins in his day as did Gaston. Saved each of their asses on more than a dozen of occasions. Each grateful that they had chosen to carry them as they did on most if not all their adventures in them hills.

Unfortunately for Norman, a rare lapse of reasoning when he decided to NOT bring along the usual rope/pegs/belay on one trip out of Bridgeport into the Matterhorn area late in his guiding career, concluded with David Brower firing him as the Lead Guide for the Sierra Club...

"As I wrap this one up I thought I would mention how Norman Clyde was fired from the Sierra Club. I get the idea that Norman was a guy that expected to have competent people on his climbs and only put up with so much with what he perceived as idiots. He was leading a group to a certain peak and one of the clumsy hikers with them fell and broke his pelvis and also had a severe gash on his head. Apparently, this could have been avoided by setting up a rope over the passage. A stretcher was brought in for the injured man, but when Norman and the others came back to camp they decided to fire him from the club." - Norman Clyde: Legendary Mountaineer of California's Sierra Nevada by Robert Pavlic


Get and read this book. According to the author, it is best to have a handful or two of "pegs" along in ones knapsack, than none.









They both ended up old men and died of natural causes.




Oh, and let us not forget this little jewel of wisdom from one of the past greats that accomplished a ton during his climbing life. He too had a terrible habit of being "over cautious" during his many successes. He also died of natural causes.....

"There are two kinds of climbers... smart ones and dead ones." — Don Whillans.


Hmmmmmmmmmm.......

One thing I noticed is that some people feel safer to be roped even if they do not set intermediate pro. That just puts you in a position to kill self and your partner if you fall. If rope is used in a simul climbing scenario, use intermediate pro. Unless you are on an easy terrain you and your partner are 100% comfortable on.

Rope without pro etc still can be used to rap down a part one is not comfortable down-climbing (but comfortable climbing up for example)...or giving someone else a little hip belay up a short step...

On moderate terrain there are ways to protect the climb without using gear, for example, on ridge climbs one can weave the rope around pinnacles and blocks but I daresay this takes more skill and judgment than placing pro. Gaston Rubaffet and his colleagues were true masters - most who climb today will not match their skill.

It's always a tough decision whether to bring a rope or not on a class 4 route that recommends it. You're right, for someone going solo there wouldn't be much practical use for a rope on the way up. On the way down, however, it's different. You might not be as comfortable downclimbing what you climbed up. Perhaps a storm came in and soaked the slab that was so easy before. Maybe you want to lower your pack to the shelf below so you can downclimb without the extra weight on your back. If you plan on using a rope to help you, you should carry some webbing and have the knowledge to use it to build rappel anchors. Otherwise, you'll stay out of trouble just by refusing to climb up something you wouldn't be comfortable climbing down.

That being said, you'd be surprised at how many 4th class routes already have rappel stations in place. For example, in your state of Colorado, I found them on the Bells Traverse, the Crestone Traverse, and on Little Bear peak. I carried a rope when I did all 3, but only used it coming down Little Bear because the descent route was wet and slabby.

A rope actually can be useful on the way up, even solo. Though only in rare cases, maybe very rarely. I've done this twice, before I was comfortable with exposure. It took some time to set up. On the same routes now I wouldn't even think of bothering, but this was then.

The first was a situation where I could lasso the rope around a rock above the crux move, tie one end off to a tree for a solid anchor, and then make the move with the rope above me, anchored below. I had a prussik so I could keep any slack to a minimum (used to take in slack, not to assist in the climb). The second was not too differenet.

A kindof hokey way to do things, but it worked for me at the time. Something similar can be done in other situations, with or without intermediate protection, so long as there is only one pitch where the rope is used. There's no way to untie from the anchor until you go back.

Vitaliy M. wrote:One thing I noticed is that some people feel safer to be roped even if they do not set intermediate pro. That just puts you in a position to kill self and your partner if you fall. If rope is used in a simul climbing scenario, use intermediate pro. Unless you are on an easy terrain you and your partner are 100% comfortable on.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

To address the OP's first question: Yes better climbers often forgo a rope on 4th class and 5.easy terrain for upward progress but less often for down. But it's not only the difficulty of the actual physical movement skills that is the limiting factor, but all the other issues that comprise the risk. Yeah, I know, I've seen guys in Tevas solo 5.10d up and down, but most people can't, and certainly not in the rain, at night, tired, with a pack, or hungry, etc, etc. "Bring a Rope" is shorthand for bring the tools and skills necessary to elevate the game to the next level if conditions dictate. A rope, harness, HMS biner, quicklink, and a hank(30') of runner is my minimum "bring a rope" kit; I often throw in my "small rack"(1.5 lbs) because it opens up a whole range of other possibilities. I contend that you need to have experience climbing at the mid to upper 5.x range before you have the judgement and skill to comfortably solo very much 5.easy terrain. A couple of moves of 5.7, then back to talus hopping is still 4th class.

Chad, we were simul climbing than simul soloing through easy terrain, than back to simul climbing, and even pitching a part of it out. We were very comfortable with the terrain we chose not to protect. That walk way is not hard at all. Some people walk across it. With my double plastic boots in winter, I didn't.

myfierceblackhound wrote:

alpine345 wrote:To address the OP's first question: Yes better climbers often forgo a rope on 4th class and 5.easy terrain for upward progress but less often for down. But it's not only the difficulty of the actual physical movement skills that is the limiting factor, but all the other issues that comprise the risk. Yeah, I know, I've seen guys in Tevas solo 5.10d up and down, but most people can't, and certainly not in the rain, at night, tired, with a pack, or hungry, etc, etc. "Bring a Rope" is shorthand for bring the tools and skills necessary to elevate the game to the next level if conditions dictate. A rope, harness, HMS biner, quicklink, and a hank(30') of runner is my minimum "bring a rope" kit; I often throw in my "small rack"(1.5 lbs) because it opens up a whole range of other possibilities. I contend that you need to have experience climbing at the mid to upper 5.x range before you have the judgement and skill to comfortably solo very much 5.easy terrain. A couple of moves of 5.7, then back to talus hopping is still 4th class.

That is such an absolutely excellent answer to the OP's question that it bears repeating.

I can't believe it took 2 pages for someone to finally say it.

There is NO absolute answer to this question.

Each individual has their own tolerance and requirement for where and when to rope up based on given situ, time in the saddle and the actual adventure days confidence level.

That is why for the OP, it may be rec'd that they do bring "gear" for the situ given. You can always leave it at the base or haul it along.