alpine345 wrote:I think we should go PM to un-clutter this thread

People can take the clutter.

alpine345 wrote:Sharing and spreading information is one purpose of forums like this .

And that is why.

BTW Re the hip belay, yet another (you might say archaic), but essential thing to know if you want to scramble in the mountains.
I hope you never have to use it, ever, but if you are ever in the kind of situation that requires it, well you get my point.

PS. Miguel Carmona took a 45 footer off the infamous Green Arch on Tahquitz Rock in 1980 trying a fairly early free ascent of the arch. Miguel's belayer (that would be me) used the hip belay to arrest his fall without any problems. He was tought how to use the hip belay!! Of course he uses belay device now and have done so for years, but...read the above.

Edit. Spelling (might need more than one version).

Kinda wish I knew what you guys were talking about, but interesting none the less. It would appear theres a lot of grey area in climbing methods/precautions.

asmrz wrote:This post is getting (got) a bit crazy.

There is a huge difference between mountaineering and rock climbing, we all know that. If you are enjoying mountaineering and scrambling in the mountains, some of the the reasons for having a rope with you might be:

1. You are stronger/strongest person in the party and just because you can climb or downclimb something, others might not.

2. Even If you are climbing with your long time partner and you know his/hers skills, but the route is a long exposed ridge, and getting stuck could mean a "BIVI", you better bring rope, harnesses, a few tied slings and 3-4 stoppers.

3. If you go alone, and you are super comfy on easy 5th class terrain, you can leave the rope at home.

4. Any doubts (at all!!) about a route, the complete set up with rope, harness, 3-4 slings and 3-4 stoppers could save your life, it weights very little and will not slow you or anyone else down.

5. Whoever posted about knowing "dulfersitz" was asbsolutely RIGHT. If you want to be scrambling in the mountains, you need to know how to rap easier terrain with just a rope, if you have to. It is as imperative to know this as it is to know how to tie all your knots, how to safely scramble up 4/5th class terrain, how to read the route etc. it is a part of having a mountain sense and complete mountain skils.

Excellent Post Alois.

My only point regarding the "dulfersitz", is as you posted above prior to your "dulfersitz" point. If one in today's "mountaineering world" is going to bring a rope along, they most assuredly will have a harness, locker and belay device as well. Common Sense.

Knowing it and actually using it are two distinct issues. As you well know Alois, if done improperly with little or no experience, one can flip backwards and be gone into oblivion. And the same deal goes with a "Hip Belay". Done incorrectly in a real world scenario, and one if not both are gone.

But then again, we should not assume the obvious.

Rick, agreed. Just one thing, I never urged anyone to USE these, I absolutely urge everyone to LEARN them for additional safety in the mountains...

By the end of last summer, the four of us were in the Alps, with a local mountain guide. Yesterday had been a very rewarding, but also long and tiring. We were all still feeling the effects.

Today's plan wasn't very difficult, nor particularly long. And so, before long, we were on an exposed ridge, with plenty of hand- and footholds, but poor rock quality. Somewhere at the bottom of the 5.x scale. The sides were steep, although not quite vertical. We were a bit slower than usual, because many rocks that I touched were a bit wobbly. Being five on a rope, we didn't place any protection. It would hardly have been possible anyway, given the state of the rock.

Our guide was leading, when suddenly number two on the rope lost it and fell.Whether it was a slip, or some hold gave way, I still don't know. I watched it all from the rear and it all happened very quickly. Number three had been paying attention. The rope was already around a rocky knob, and he pulled it taught immediately. As a result, it was only a three meter fall, instead of possibly a few hundred without a rope. The landing was awkward, head first, and if we had not had our helmets on, it could have been a lot worse. Later, at the hospital, the diagnosis was a mild concussion.

We quickly decided that this fall was a sign that we were not in the right shape to cross this ridge, and we went back down instead.

The lesson here is that, especially with a larger group, going on a rope without protection can already add safety. Even without paying attention, the rope can easily get stuck somewhere, catching a fall. If everybody is paying attention, all the better.

alpine345 wrote:MoapaPk: how do you define "body belay", if not by generating friction via wrapping the rope around your self somewhere?(AKA hip belay)

A lot of people see "hip belay," and immediately think of a standing belay without another intervening source of friction.

And what is the little red guy holding on to? Just his hands grabbing the rope? I don't think so, or I hope not. His friction options are: hip belay, tube device, munter hitch, or auto block/reverso type. I've done the stance belay that you've diagrammed with the lip of rock many times and that's usually the first thing I look for when selecting a belay stance. It contributes a variable, unknown amount of friction via rope drag, but I contend that it won't supply 100% of the required arresting force. There just has to be something else in the system. And who belayed the little red guy? What kind of belay/protection did they use? Or, did he just solo? That's fine, I just want to know the rules of the debate and get some assumptions and pre-judgments exposed...If you want to proceed, I think we should go PM to un-clutter this thread.

I reiterate that a lot of people don't fully get the concept of rope friction and force balance, and you are helping to illustrate that point. Remember the physics 101 problem, about the tension supplied by a little bird that lands on a taut telephone line?

With such a setup, you can use a small amount of force to stop a fall. The rock and friction on the rope supply most of the force. And, your legs are incredibly strong. And I reiterate that canyoneers do this stuff all the time; knots do it, too. We aren't talking about stopping a leader fall. I've acted as a rappel anchor, with the right slot for a seat.

The little red guy was I (but I was actually wearing blue that day, so I took some artistic license). I went through a tunnel and climbed by a side crack, utilizing a combination of contortion and acrobatics. Most other folks didn't think they could follow, so I belayed, from two positions. At one point a guy just climbed the rope, and for a moment I took his entire 200 lb weight.

You are setting up straw men. The snarky voice you seem to hear exists only in your head.

MoapaPk wrote:

alpine345 wrote:MoapaPk: how do you define "body belay", if not by generating friction via wrapping the rope around your self somewhere?(AKA hip belay)

A lot of people see "hip belay," and immediately think of a standing belay without another intervening source of friction.

And what is the little red guy holding on to? Just his hands grabbing the rope? I don't think so, or I hope not. His friction options are: hip belay, tube device, munter hitch, or auto block/reverso type. I've done the stance belay that you've diagrammed with the lip of rock many times and that's usually the first thing I look for when selecting a belay stance. It contributes a variable, unknown amount of friction via rope drag, but I contend that it won't supply 100% of the required arresting force. There just has to be something else in the system. And who belayed the little red guy? What kind of belay/protection did they use? Or, did he just solo? That's fine, I just want to know the rules of the debate and get some assumptions and pre-judgments exposed...If you want to proceed, I think we should go PM to un-clutter this thread.

I reiterate that a lot of people don't fully get the concept of rope friction and force balance, and you are helping to illustrate that point. Remember the physics 101 problem, about the tension supplied by a little bird that lands on a taut telephone line?

With such a setup, you can use a small amount of force to stop a fall. The rock and friction on the rope supply most of the force. And, your legs are incredibly strong. And I reiterate that canyoneers do this stuff all the time; knots do it, too. We aren't talking about stopping a leader fall. I've acted as a rappel anchor, with the right slot for a seat.

The little red guy was I (but I was actually wearing blue that day, so I took some artistic license). I went through a tunnel and climbed by a side crack, utilizing a combination of contortion and acrobatics. Most other folks didn't think they could follow, so I belayed, from two positions. At one point a guy just climbed the rope, and for a moment I took his entire 200 lb weight.

You are setting up straw men. The snarky voice you seem to hear exists only in your head.

All the above is easily remedied with these as some came to the realization some 50 or so years ago....



I think they call it "Progress". I call it 2lbs (at the most) of Insurance.

You can add this contraption to that insurance policy as well. Use it for both Belays and Raps.

alpine345 wrote:seano: Are you equating "rock climber" to "gym climber" or even "sport climber"? By that definition, I agree that there are lots of people out there without all the tools they need to succeed and be efficient in the mountaineering environment. Sharing and spreading information is one purpose of forums like this .

I guess I was thinking of sport and next-to-the-road trad climbers with no limits on the money and weight they can put into their racks. Somewhat tongue-in-cheek: a "climber" is someone who doesn't do long approaches, and who will climb the hardest line on the hardest face on a mountain, then not bother to scramble the rest of the way to the summit; a "mountaineer" will climb whatever works on the hardest face, then continue to the summit.

MoapaPk:

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With such a setup, you can use a small amount of force to stop a fall.

The setup I still prefer is the 10:1 or more force multiplication of a modern belay brake or munter hitch.

I reiterate that a lot of people don't fully get the concept of rope friction and force balance, and you are helping to illustrate that point.

Glad I could help illustrate that point. I assure you I know all about the sources and uses of rope friction and force balance...

We aren't talking about stopping a leader fall.

At one point a guy just climbed the rope,

I've acted as a rappel anchor,

Seconds and handlining only generate minimal forces, similar to rappeling and lowering... Now we're on the same page! It just took a while. I've sometimes taken a throw bag off my raft for a hand line or to "belay" people on canyon hikes that have awkward sections, using bowline-on-a-coil or a diaper sling. But I still take runners and an HMS biner to build a munter belay, because I think it's faster, safer, and more efficient than other options for actual belaying.

alpine345 wrote:But I still take runners and an HMS biner to build a munter belay, because I think it's faster, safer, and more efficient than other options for actual belaying.

Bingo... As have I going on four decades now.




Time tested and proven the world over to be the best gig for simplicity, efficiency and safety.

MoapaPk wrote:You can sling a bush, a tree, a rock and most of the time you can pull the rope/webbing

Never brought a rope and I sometimes felt the same than CSUMarmot, but I think MoapaPk is right. However I try to always tell myself, if I went up, I should be able to get down as well... unless I get lost.

CSUMarmot wrote:
Kinda wish I knew what you guys were talking about, but interesting none the less. It would appear theres a lot of grey area in climbing methods/precautions.

I'm glad you're enjoying the debate. The methods aren't so much "grey" as they are varied. They've mostly been well worked out over the years. All of the systems/tools can be useful given the exact circumstances encountered. Experience, training, and judgement (and debate) will guide you in choosing which system/tool you use to match the challenge encountered. Up thread was a comment to include ALL of the available systems/tools in your toolbox. When you have all the tools you can say "Here's the challenge. Now which of my available tools best meets this challenge?" MoapaPk and I were only debating which tool to use because we hadn't agreed on what challenge we were solving.

Hi, here for a blitzkrieg comment.

Sometimes, pro leads to a false sense of security; cams and chocks require expert placement in soft sandstone, and even then, there are places where they simply won’t hold… or are completely unneeded. I think part of the problem here is that we all have different pictures in our head of "climbs."

Below is the NE face of North Guardian Angel; the DPS calls this class 4, and many folks here on SP have climbed this route. The exposure is bad in places. I’ve seen people heading up with racks full of cams and chocks; but really you should just sling the abundant trees and leave the hardware behind. There are very few cracks suitable for hardware, and some of the cracks are best left for fingers, not to be widened and chipped by incautious placement of devices.

(if the photo doesn't come up, just click on this link: http://www.summitpost.org/ne-ridge-rout ... 1/c-153975)



I’ve been up 3 times, and circumstances greatly affected how I felt about the route. Once, I used no ropes or gear, but had the likeable cp0915 to “model” parts of the route. Once I was with a cautious person, whom I belayed twice and rapped with twice. And the last time I was a group leader, and insisted that we rap once to avoid an exposed, blind downclimb. Leading people greatly changes your perspective. On steep, soft, sand-covered Zion ramps, downclimbs are often much scarier than upclimbs.

Oddly, there are people who will bring lots of hardware for this type of climb, yet will short-change the rope length to save weight. If the guide tells you to bring 120’ of rope, there is probably a reason. And if you bring rope for this excursion, bring slings and rapides.

edit : cimbs->climbs