I'll go for the first down.

I think it is really bad style to set up a top rope and “work” a route which you are not ready for. This practice reveals a total lack of understanding about how to get better at climbing. One needs to progress incrementally with well understood goals. Stretch your limits? Of course. Hopelessly flail? Makes you worse.

A big part of the art of climbing is to choose your routes wisely.

I don’t think the OP or any other reasonable person would be bothered by the early bird who got there first if they are progressing reasonably on the climb and not abusing it. I for one would be offering encouragement.

Also I am surprised that the point I have raised earlier on this thread: that flailing climbers damage the route, has got no traction in this discussion. This flailing bs is a real issue in Joshua Tree.

Of course the other issue with tr'ing a climb to death is that generally the wrong holds are getting chalked up and when someone goes to lead it they are misdirected and that might lead them to fall off...

ksolem wrote:I think it is really bad style to set up a top rope and “work” a route which you are not ready for. This practice reveals a total lack of understanding about how to get better at climbing. One needs to progress incrementally with well understood goals. Stretch your limits? Of course. Hopelessly flail? Makes you worse.

Not necessarily.

We used to regularly set up a top rope on an "impossible" 5.10 in Yosemite on our rest days, and drink beer and thrash.

A year later I was leading the route and placing only one stopper on the entire pitch.

ShortTimer wrote:Of course the other issue with tr'ing a climb to death is that generally the wrong holds are getting chalked up and when someone goes to lead it they are misdirected and that might lead them to fall off...

Oooh, the ol' silent sandbag.

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:

ksolem wrote:I think it is really bad style to set up a top rope and “work” a route which you are not ready for. This practice reveals a total lack of understanding about how to get better at climbing. One needs to progress incrementally with well understood goals. Stretch your limits? Of course. Hopelessly flail? Makes you worse.

Not necessarily.

We used to regularly set up a top rope on an "impossible" 5.10 in Yosemite on our rest days, and drink beer and thrash.

A year later I was leading the route and placing only one stopper on the entire pitch.

So let me get this straight. You go up to this "impossible" climb on a "rest day," all tired, get drunk and trash instead of resting?

Why not do it in way better style (fewer tries and wasted efforts) by going up well rested and sober?

Just sayin'...

ksolem wrote:So let me get this straight. You go up to this "impossible" climb on a "rest day," all tired, get drunk and trash instead of resting?

Why not do it in way better style (fewer tries and wasted efforts) by going up well rested and sober?

Just sayin'...

Chicks! Lots of chicks nearby! Usually returning from the base of Yosemite Falls in wet T-shirts!

+1 for chicks in wet tshirts.

Nothing like a bunch of un-washed, long-hair hippie freaks carrying lots of beer, rock gear and a boom box blasting jimi hendrix to attract chicks in wet T-shirts!

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Nothing like a bunch of un-washed, long-hair hippie freaks carrying lots of beer, rock gear and a boom box blasting jimi hendrix to attract chicks in wet T-shirts!

I always did better with the girls when I actually climbed well. Slamming down beers and flailing on a 5.10 never got me much attention if you know what I mean...

I witnessed this yesterday while climbing at Malibu, Apes Wall.

This dude shows up, new pack, new gear, etc.......

Everybody gives big welcome, (this is the friendliest crag in America) offers their Top Ropes to use.

This dudes sets up, on a 11a and starts to teach his HOT GF how to put on a harness etc. ..... it's pretty obvious she has never ever touched plastic or stone in her life.

We offer to belay the dude so he can climb without the fear of a bad belay..... he gets to the crux, never used his feet, just campuses up the holes to the crux and is stopped cold.

Now it's GF's time, she cant get off the deck, duhh, some yelling from dude sorts of ticks her off some..... rockclimbing isn't all that much fun....

Dud makes another try.....

In the mean time "we" get GF to try one of the easier ones..... The only beta I gave her was: Climb like it's the monkey bars back at school, no rules..... biggest best holds are chalked up.

She climbs almost 1/2 way... has a smile on face when she gets down.

Turns out, due is not BF after all......

I got her e-mail address.

ksolem wrote:Also I am surprised that the point I have raised earlier on this thread: that flailing climbers damage the route, has got no traction in this discussion. This flailing bs is a real issue in Joshua Tree.

This is not often true, and especially not so in Jtree. Even the most polished slabs like Black Tide still have better friction than anything in the Valley. Traffic usually improves rock quality and I could point to many a climb in the Wonderland that would only benefit from a couple hundred toprope ascents. If you can pull it off with your hands, it was just time for that hold to come off... But aside from some surface grit, most of the rock in Jtree is quite solid in my experience.

Now if you were to use Indian Creek as an example, I might agree with you. There's some pretty unfortunate wear and tear from people toproping and being lowered - rope gouges inches deep under the anchors, you could even handjam some of them. Sad really. Of course all of this toprope flailing pales in comparison to the damage done by nailing an aid route, ground-up of course.

If it's just a matter of hogging the route, I say give the Old Woman a rest and find another route to climb. Jtree has over 7000 established routes and thousands more waiting to be climbed. Even on the busiest holiday weekend, I doubt there's ropes on more than 100 of them. California is one of those states that's fortunate enough to have enough rock for everyone. If you don't like crowds, don't go to a crowded area. I can't even remember the last time I've had to wait on a climb in Jtree. Hell, half the time I won't even see another climbing party all day. You know the noobs are going to be there at Hemingway with a toprope on Poodles, so just go climb one of the other 50-something Poodle routes, and be grateful the noobs stick close to the road where it's easy for SAR to find them when they do something stupid.

Byran...... Not to disagree with what you say except this. Many JT climbs are really different from when the FA went up.

Choss stone does indeed benefit from "heavy traffic" loose stuff gets pulled off.

There are climbs, like "Loose Lady", "Run For Your Life", "Walk on the Wild Side" and others that have become more difficult over the years because of wear n tear.

Comparing the friction to TM or other places/stone is sort of a weak argument, IMHO. JT has vertical friction climbing and if foot holds get broken (by standing improperly and turning your feet) the climbs can change radically.

But the OP of this thread is about folks getting on a TR that is so far over their ability that it's impossible for them to even come close to sending.

You mentioned Indian Creek..... Just imagine, if you will, a 5.11b finger crack with about 50 feet of 5.6 fist jamming to get to the .11 part...... and the "climber" can't do the 5.6 let alone get to the hard bit.

Is this a good way to learn how to climb cracks?

Welcome to the SummitPost.

GK

Byran wrote:

ksolem wrote:Also I am surprised that the point I have raised earlier on this thread: that flailing climbers damage the route, has got no traction in this discussion. This flailing bs is a real issue in Joshua Tree.

This is not often true, and especially not so in Jtree. Even the most polished slabs like Black Tide still have better friction than anything in the Valley.

Hi Byran… I wasn’t thinking of the easy trade routes where the crowds go, so much as some harder climbs which have convenience anchors and easy access to set a TR. Without beating a dead horse here’s a few examples…

Puss ‘n Boots – Ever since Loose Lady sprouted a bolted convenience anchor (added many years after the first ascent,) it’s more serious neighbor to the right has taken a beating. The scenario: Someone leads the Lady and immediately the TRs get set up on both routes for the rest of the group. Now if someone is challenged ob Loose Lady, they’re going to flail hopelessly on the other one. The delicate holds in the crux are not standing up well to the slipping and sliding of climbers who have not got the technique. If the bolts atop the Houser Buttress were to be removed, Puss ‘n Boots might still be 5.11 in 20 years.

Solo Dog – Another serious climb rarely led but easily and frequently “worked” on TR. The opening moves are getting thinner and not just ‘cause I’m getting older…

Split Personality (at The Asylum) – Again rarely led but more often set up as a TR after doing one of the easier climbs to the top there. Most people who try this one cannot get to the first bolt. The result: the thin holds which made the start quite doable by a climber with good skills (and would have lasted forever when climbed with such skillz) are being erased.

Battle of the Bulge (Echo) – The face below the bulge, once home to edges offering up the delicate footwork to make the crux moves is now polished, and I don’t think all the slipping and sliding it took to do that was by climbers on lead.

I was pleased to see, the other day, that the new convenience anchor atop A Woman’s Work is Never Done has been removed. Jeeze folks, build an anchor or go to the friggin’ gym where they can replace what you wear out…

So while I don’t really disagree with your points, I just want to clarify mine which is a bit different…

I just remembered the phrase we used to use: "falling up" a climb.

ksolem wrote:

Byran wrote:

ksolem wrote:I was pleased to see, the other day, that the new convenience anchor atop A Woman’s Work is Never Done has been removed. Jeeze folks, build an anchor or go to the friggin’ gym where they can replace what you wear out…

That development is one of my biggest gripes. In some place they're probably justified to prevent a sketchy descent (especially since that seems to be becoming a lost art these days)--I'm thinking of the chains on Exorcist. But in other places, they just lead to crowding on climbs that can easily be lead--here I'm thinking about the chains at the top of White Lightening/Poodles. There is a relatively straightforward (albeit 5.3) downclimb nearby and of course you can always walk off, but both of those seem to be so unappealling to today's generation of climber.