Locked threads

[Aaron Johnson]

Good lighthearted comments above. Thanks for the chuckles.

Gary-I hope whoever made that fire did a good job putting it out. We stumbled onto an abandoned, smoldering firepit this year during a dry part of the summer. Scary stuff.

Concerning privately owned v.s. "democratically run" sites: A truly democratic site that is truly built from the ground up by its members would be an interesting project, perhaps a suitable challenge for some here at SP. Of course, those that built the site would have to be ready for any discourse that would eventually come from those that did not have a hand in building it in the first place. Such would be a true and rigorous test of democracy.

Does such a site exist? Anywhere?

[mconnell]

mconnell:

Sounds like you read the PM I sent to Bob earlier today. The issue isn't PnP, it's the new direction of site management in moderating SP.

The issue WAS PnP. It was contradictory to what was originally intended for SP to be. The direction is nothing new. It only seems new. People don't know SP without PnP. SP is still SP. Though it got the most attention, PnP is TINY compared to the rest of SP, which is MASSIVE. That's just wrong. SP is so much more than PnP could ever be.

PnP was your issue, not mine. The direction that is new is moderation or deleting of on topic threads and discussions. I don't recall that happening before.

SP is a privately owned web site.

Understood, but until recently it appeared that the opinions of members mattered. Lately, it appears that the opinions of a few have outweighed the opinions of the majority. I guess that those with the power have that option. It's just clear that a lot of people don't like it.

There is no arguing that SP had become something different than it was originally conceived to be. Originally, it was a place for beta and talk about specific climbing topics. It turned in to a place for climbers to hang out and talk about whatever. A lot of people spent time here just for that reason. Now it is heading back to the original plan.

Still a damn good web site, but a lot different thing that it was a couple weeks ago.

[Aaron Johnson]

Gary Schenk:

http://www.freerepublic.com

Thanks!

mconnell:

PnP was your issue, not mine. The direction that is new is moderation or deleting of on topic threads and discussions. I don't recall that happening before.

PnP was indeed an issue for the staff. In the now notorious Site Feedback thread about the demise of PnP, I made one lengthy post stating why it had become the unworkable issue it was. Folks were so mad that few caught the gist of the post. Only two members made mention of it to me.

Folks must remember much goes on that they never hear about. Undercurrents not immediately evident in a forum discussion are always present, and at times they are more powerful than what is happening on the surface. Many other factors must be considered by the staff that members will never be aware of, and the members must take it on faith that the staff is acting in the best intersts of SP, even though it may seem we're not acting in the best interests of the members when in fact we are.

I can elaborate no further. Folks will have to take it at that.

Understood, but until recently it appeared that the opinions of members mattered. Lately, it appears that the opinions of a few have outweighed the opinions of the majority. I guess that those with the power have that option. It's just clear that a lot of people don't like it.

There is no arguing that SP had become something different than it was originally conceived to be. Originally, it was a place for beta and talk about specific climbing topics. It turned in to a place for climbers to hang out and talk about whatever. A lot of people spent time here just for that reason. Now it is heading back to the original plan.

Still a damn good web site, but a lot different thing that it was a couple weeks ago.

In most issues, member opinions do matter and in the past, I have put matters out to the membership. So I understand it was a shock when the staff acted without member input. Folks were used to that process. Again, the members will just have to understand and believe (if they choose to) that the staff acted in the best interests of SP. In other matters in the future, when appropriate, members will have input. On this particular matter, we cannot consider it. PnP is gone and it's a done deal. PnP lovers who can't survive without it will have to get their social time in elsewhere, because the situation was not good for SP on many levels.

I too will miss the discussions. I particularly liked movies and music discussions. Even so, PnP was not the main focus or reason for me being here. If PnP was the main reason for anyone being here, then they were hoping to get something from SP that was not intended. Folks should never count on anything on the internet. Nothing is permanent, no one has a "right" to socialize anywhere they want, especially on a privately owned web site. Gary's link above will steer them in the right direction.

A lot of people spent time at SP because of PnP, sure. I wonder how many of them knew what SP really was, and how much it truly had to offer. The scope, the perspective of SP is so vast, it's ridiculous to mention PnP's narrow purpose in the same sentence. It was an inappropriate addition to SP, ultimately proven out by powers unseen and beyond anyone's control.

It's unfortunate we had to go through this unpleasant chapter. I have never been keen on the PnP concept. Had it never happened, I believe SP would be the same great web site it is today. So we're "going back to the original plan". We just took a little 7 year detour . Had those undecurrents not overwhelmed us, perhaps SP would still be on the other heading, but the undercurrents dictated a course change. It's not good for some folks, but it's great for most folks that come to SP daily to do what SP does best-show off the mountains. The staff is convinced this is a very good thing for SP and all who choose to make it one of their favorite web sites. Some may not believe it, but the staff has acted in SP's best interests.

Now if SP's owners disagree and run us off, all bets are off!

Thanks mconnell for your comments.

[Zzyzx]

And now I come to the main point in my participation in this discussion.

In the past, I have invited opinions and discussions about how SP should be managed, including addressing those that wanted me removed. I was interested in how the membership felt certain matters should be handled. Through such exchanges, we have addressed matters on the home page, the SP page structure and so forth. Those are great exchanges and I'm sure we'll see more of those in the future.

But ultimately, SP is a privately owned web site.

Those that participate here need to understand this. Members have no vote...on anything. Members have no say...on anything. If you do, it is given to you because "management" cares about your opiniuon. But if they have made their decision, members must either live by that decision, or go elsewhere where they don't have to live by management's decision, in otherwords, go where they'll get what they're looking for and be happy. If SP is unfulfilling, there is nothing stopping you from departing.

You are free to disagree with "management" in Site Feedback. Management is ually tolerant of these matters. But if they're going NOWHERE, management is certainly free to disagree with those that disagree with them and act as they see fit.

If Josh, Matt or Ryle are displeased, they'll let us know and likely run us off. But until then, members need to remember, SP is not a democracy. SP is a privately owned web site.

The end.

Privately owned Aaron? Really? So who exactly owns what? I'm really curious to hear.

When you say that Josh, Ryle and (?) Matt own the site, what is it exactly that they own? All of the photos, trip reports, mountain pages and beta on this site are intellectual property of the respective members who created / submitted them. None of the owners of this website or the "management" owns any of that (other than what they themselves submitted). So pretty much other than the framework of SP the owners don't own anything else here.

Even though the information is stored here, it is still the property of the individual SP users and can be removed by them at any time.
So have you thought about what SP would be if most of the members deleted their contributions (which THEY legally own)?

What's the point then of telling everybody that their opinion in essence is irrelevant because the site is privately own? I'm really surprised to hear it from you Aaron. It is similar to the attitude of many government representatives. They tend to forget who put them there and who's paying their salaries.

I also would like to hear what you have to say about the "Off-route" board. It is pretty much a heavily censored version of PnP with most of the threads 100% unrelated to climbing and taken directly from PnP!!!

If you say that SP is about mountains and related activities and there's no need for PnP, why don't you delete that "Off-route" stuff? How come that the same people who say they are glad that PnP is gone keep posting stuff irrelevant to climbing in "Off-routes". When is the management going to show some consistency, transparency, integrity and respect for those who over the years made this site what it is? Or are you going to instead lock / delete this thread? The latter is what at this point I expect from the "management".

[Big Benn]

Another well thought out posting from Aaron.

Guys and girls. Surely we have to fall in line here. And stop putting pressure on those few people who spend so much time keeping this wonderful site going for us. And if in falling in line means we are going to lose some contributions to the main body of SP, then that will be very sad. But I reckon such losses will be very small, and will be replaced. SP is far bigger than just a comparatively small number who can't take the changes or the way the site is managed.

For the non confrontational, social aspects that have brought some of us together, (I would not have hiked the mountains with the SP'ers I have met without it), we do have a small section at the bottom of the Forum index board.

And as for me, I am enjoying getting into the main SP Forums that PnP had made me rather neglect. I'm learning stuff from fellow SP'ers. And maybe can sometimes make a very small contribution as well.

[mrh]

I have a couple questions. In Aarons long post he said he is happy to talk about "solutions". Yet we have clearly been told that pnp is gone and there is nothing that can be done about that. In the 100 page thread several people tried to talk about solutions and were told not to bother. I have to wonder then what solutions to what problem he was referring to?

Also I have to wonder about the Off Route forum. Why do we have it? Because people like to have a place to go talk about things other than mountains? Good idea. But how long can we talk about the dozen or so topics there? No one but an elf can start something there so can we go through an elf to start a discussion we think people would like? Sounds like more work for the elves and of course people can argue there as well. Is the idea to let those topics get tired and eventually dump it too? There must have been room in elfdom plans for allowing an off topic place or we wouldn't have it. I mean long term what is the plan for that forum?

The alternate SP that was created is actually working very well. If you liked pnp and haven't been there you should check it out. Problem is they say it will only have a life of about two months.

[Rob]

Good posts guys.

The whole reason PnP became a problem, was because the people who were banned, were let back, time, and time again. The elves were bad parents for PnP.

[Dave K]

Guys, you're retracing a lot of old ground here. Workload issues was a part of it, but there are many other reasons. They are covered here:

http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51220

I can't speak for other elves but I'm not particularly interested in going over it again.

[Rob]

So then it seems we would all benefit from new, additional elves? Then the workload would drop off? Wouldn't that dilute said power?

No, the current elves value their power too much to let it go, or share it.

[Big Benn]

I have watched all this going on, trying so hard to stay in the middle and not rock the boat.

But enough is enough. Butitsadryheat talks of the limited number of threads allowed in the Off-Route Forum.

Does anyone realise what it means not to have the dirndl thread there? What that is making me do?

It means I am having to start a new dirndl thread in the alternative PnP.

Day after day, hour after hour I am forced to us Google Image search to view countless images of Bavarian Serving Wenches bursting out of their slightly undersized dirndls whilst serving jug after jug of ice cold bier.

I can't just post the first images I find. I have to check, then double check to make sure they meet laid down quality standards. Then search some more to see if I can find an even better image. One with "more bursting out", or "more jugs in view".

I'm going off to the UK Peaks for a couple of days walking shortly. I really need the break: yes as Rob, (Rhyang), and the Chief amongst others have indicated, SP is about getting outside. Not about getting inside, (inside those dirndls in my case ).

Anyway. I've got a bit more time before I drive North. So, (yawn), it's back to searching for busty Bavarian Serving Wench images again.

[Dave K]

So then it seems we would all benefit from new, additional elves? Then the workload would drop off? Wouldn't that dilute said power?

No, the current elves value their power too much to let it go, or share it.

You know, it might surprise you guys how much time and work we put into trying to save what we ultimately concluded was an unworkable mess, and how bullshit and vitriol was directed at us in the process.

But no, we must be power hungry.

[rhyang]

I have watched all this going on, trying so hard to stay in the middle and not rock the boat.

But enough is enough. Butitsadryheat talks of the limited number of threads allowed in the Off-Route Forum.

Does anyone realise what it means not to have the dirndl thread there? What that is making me do?

It means I am having to start a new dirndl thread in the alternative PnP.

Day after day, hour after hour I am forced to us Google Image search to view countless images of Bavarian Serving Wenches bursting out of their slightly undersized dirndls whilst serving jug after jug of ice cold bier.

I can't just post the first images I find. I have to check, then double check to make sure they meet laid down quality standards. Then search some more to see if I can find an even better image. One with "more bursting out", or "more jugs in view".

I'm going off to the UK Peaks for a couple of days walking shortly. I really need the break: yes as Rob, (Rhyang), and the Chief amongst others have indicated, SP is about getting outside. Not about getting inside, (inside those dirndls in my case ).

Anyway. I've got a bit more time before I drive North. So, (yawn), it's back to searching for busty Bavarian Serving Wench images again.

I know it's a tough job Bryan, but someone has to do it