I totaly agree that drugs (Diamox) is not a substitute for proper aclimatization as well. FYI I was the only one in our team of 4 using Diamox. Even with this being the case my aclimatization process followed the same as the rest of the group and was in line with the scedules that the guided teams were using. Our summit day was on day 13 of our trip. I even met a few climbing groups that were not taking Diamox that had a summit day scedule that was 2 or 3 days quicker than ours. The only thing you said that I feel is not appropriate and I took offense to is your suggestion that I or anyone else should not have been climbing Aconcagua if they need Diamox. I didn't necesarily need Diamox, I choose to take as do thousands of other climbers. I took it in case that little boost made the difference.

On another note and even further off topic
One group of seven Japanesse climbers was chased down the day before by high winds and sent home.. They had guides and porters setting up their high tents and all they ever carried were day packs. Aconcagua shouldn't be a mountain that you can just buy and I was actually happy they failed trying to do just that. Saw a German guy that only had an Arcteryx light primiloft jacket for summit day. I am an Arcteryx junkie also but there primilot jacket is no substitute for a down parka. These are the kind of people who should not be attempting Aconcagua not those taking Diamox.


As for the trip. Woooohooooo!!

Luckily I have an exgirl friend from Russia who is going back next summer. hmmm... I wonder where this could lead...

Jeff

Jeff - be careful with having sex high on the mountain. But that's a whole other controversy and getting way off topic for this thread... <IMG SRC="http://www.summitpost.org/message_board/images/laugh.gif">

IMHO the reason you don't sleep well at night is becasue you're not properly acclimatized. It always happens to me the first couple of nights on altitude and it's happening for a reason. I take it as one of the many indications that I shouldn't go further until I sleep well.

I can see a lot of reasons why I shouldn't take Diamox. Can't find any why I should though, but that's me. Everyone has his/her own way.

That goes for the Japs and the German guy as well.

Of course you do it with "more style" if going without porters or guides, but what about mulas? What about base camp services? Alpine style vs. carries?
Where's the line of what's right and wrong and who's going to draw it?

What a person use on the summit day is a matter of weather conditions. I've been lucky on my summit days on Aconcagua. No down at all. A sweater and a membrane jacket, that's all.

Quote.. Jeff - be careful with having sex high on the mountain. But that's a whole other controversy and getting way off topic for this thread...

LOL!! No no no I was thinking along the lines of using her language skills for Elbrus. Your idea is good however but it's far too late for that now.

Too much this time Peter.
Technically speaking, not only I agree with you as far as acclimatization, but what you described has been and will be exactly my leitmotiv for very high altitude climbing. Yet, if your goal was to suggest alternative acclimatization strategy to fellow climbers, you did it in the poorest way one could have done. Actually, your statement was a pure criticism of the strategy of some of the fellows participating in this discussion added to a “Mister Clean touch” that I find being totally a shame. I believe there are as many “approaches” to the mountains as there are climbers. It’s one of the last spaces of freedom were everyone finds her/his own way of self accomplishment, does her/his own experience in her/his own way. It should not be a competition and that’s why I do not understand those people rising the so called “ethics” to the rank of dogma. If your post was not meant to be offensive or to judge people, you may consider improving your communication skills.
As far as the unfortunate Swiss climber, I can tell you, he for sure was not less intelligent than you are. He must have had a reason not to came down and he’s no longer in this world to justify his choices. Again, we do not know his constraints (do you understand the word “constraint” ?) : According to “Los Andes” news paper http://www.losandes.com.ar/nota.asp?nrc=296585 he was a guide working for a local company. That’s why reading your “pseudo analytical” strait forward conclusion, I find it arrogant, stupid and unfair.
High mountains are much more than a mineral world. I have climbed both in your county and with some of your compatriots abroad, and I find Austria has a high density of Gentlemen Mountaineers. You actually may consider going more often to Austrian huts and especially when they are open. You may discover alternative human approach to the mountains.

This is an interesting discussion. I have missed some of the back and forth the last few days so I am playing catch-up.

Alpinist William can tell you a story of another guide that collapsed high on the mountain from AMS. Who knows, perhaps these accidents would have been avoided had these people taken Diamox..

Actually the guide in question, my friend, usually takes diamox. He was on Diamox on that trip when he collapsed. He summited with me on our lastest trip, January 2006, without using it.

Myself I used it once half way up this mountain in 1987. I stopped using it because I did not like the side effects, a personal choice. I still made the summit. The other times on the mountain have all been without Diamox.

My point in continuing this discussion is that I don't see Diamox as a major factor in having success on Aconcagua. (Or any other peak for that matter). Physical and mental fortitude, staying healthy (don't forget colds and stomach ailments), and getting good weather are the most important factors IMHO.

Don't get me wrong, if it works for you then go with it. The only way anyone can really compare is to do it with and without or perhaps with a placebo.

Now there is an idea. Perhaps we could get the drug manufactuer to sponsor a SP trip to Aconcagua with 30% taking Diamox, 30% on placebo, and 30% not using. Cheers William(•:

That's a great idea William, but there would need to be hundreds of people participating for the comparison to be meaningful. The results would be very interesting though for sure.

Were it not for the kidney stone issue, I really fail to see the downside of taking low doses of Diamox. By raising your blood oxygen level, it can only help. I don't see this as a case of having an "artificial boost" which can get you into trouble. The benefit of the drug is real, unlike taking ordinary pain killers which might actually camouflage symptoms of AMS.

Sorry to turn this man's death into a debate about Diamox, but I think these discussions are productive.

Hi William:

You might not remember me but my wife Sue and I were climbing alone on Aconcagua and met you guys this past Dec-Jan. We took your reserved table at base camp (oops) and we met up again at the "new" Camp Canada (Camp 1 on the Polish Glacier Route). It was a pleasure meeting all of you.

I'd like to add my opinion regarding Diamox on the mountain. First, I believe many people suffer from some form of AMS while on a climb of this magnitude. As our bodies struggle to cope with the reduced oxygen content headaches, insomnia and nausea are all signs of how are bodies are reacting to the change. Some climbers may experience all or none of these symptoms and, if so, to varying degrees. Taken individually, a mild headache or slight bit of nausea or insomnia does not necessitate a descent or that you can't handle the climb. I would interpret these as symptoms of a mild form of AMS and that usually disappear by drinking more water and resting. The important thing here is to evaluate the situation on an ongoing basis. Does the climber get better or worse over the next few hours? Did a couple of asprin and a few liters of water get rid of the headache or not? Does the AMS appear to be progressing from mild to moderate or even severe? Is someone willing to go down with a fellow climber even if the climber doesn't want someone to help?

For me I am not opposed to using Diamox on the mountain but I don't substitute it for a slow ascent and good acclimatization. My wife used 1/2 a pill for two nights at Camp 1 before going to bed to reduce the effect of Cheyne-Stokes breathing. She didn't experience a headache or nausea but was tired in the morning because she didn't sleep well. After that she climbed well and did not suffer any further AMS up the mountain.

I usually take Diamox, Nifedipine and Dexamethasone on any high altitude climb just in case. You never know if and when you may be affected by AMS as William can attest. It never hurts to be prepared but it is more important to listen to your body and drink plenty of water...probably the best measure a climber can take to prevent AMS.

Brad

Hi Brad. Yes I remember you and your wife. Good to hear from you. (Don't remember the table thing), but things do get crowded quickly at Daniel's tent. He needs to expand. Upper deck with a hot tub... pool table etc.

Did you post any shots from your trip? Yes you did I just checked your profile.

You were the second SP members I met up with on this trip the other being Walt (juh33) who I also met in Daniels tent. He saw me reading my SP notes and recognised the pages. It was fun talking with him on SP politics etc.

Twice, once on the walk out (I was walking by myself at some points) and another dropping down from camp 2 to Base camp (I was going down the center snow field and they were following the outside going up.) I was told by my climbing buddies that there were people who knew my name and wanted to catch up with me. We missed each other I guess we just passed by and said hi but didn't exchange names. I have wondered who they were. Small world that just gets smaller each day.

Good words on the Diamox issue. IMO
Cheers William

Hi William:

Nice to hear from you too. I agree with the expansion plans for Daniel's tent...maybe he could lower the beer prices and go on volume then.

As for Walt, we met him several times on our climb. He's a great guy and the poor fellow with the bad luck I refer to in my trip report. He did a hell of a job climbing solo to the summit on that really windy day when those five tents were lost at base camp. The poor guy lost half his gear when a mule drowned crossing the river at 7:00 PM!!! Anyways, it was great meeting yourself, Laurie and the gang and Walt. I wish we could have had more time to talk. I'm planning to be back there this December so I'll keep an eye out for you.

For the rest of the climbers out there don't worry about the Diamox, use it in moderation and keep an eye out for one another...you never know when it might be you that needs help.

Cheers,

Brad