Dmitry Pruss - Dec 6, 2010 12:15 am - Voted 10/10
SP is a wiki, not a federationSP doesn't have rules of conduct or bylaws or somesuch stuff. Rather, it is a web community of people contributing to the common lore. The rules are strict in that respect, no stealing content, good style rules ... not with respect to the actual realspace conduct of the contributors.
I would let the one who never violated any rules when climbing "cast the first stone". My few front-page TRs were all about trips which fragrantly disregarded the rules ... so I won't
pearson - Dec 5, 2010 6:13 pm - Hasn't voted
HistoryIf you want to read correct history of climbing the rock this is as good a place as any I've seen. Some of the history posted in the article contradicts what the Los Alamos Mountaineers wrote.
http://lamountaineers.org/History/Topic_6.html
m_dquist - Dec 5, 2010 7:17 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: HistoryInteresting article, and probably more reliable than drunks around a campfire (my usual source). Thanks.
Kiefer - Dec 5, 2010 10:13 pm - Voted 10/10
Mixed Feelings but...overall I have to give ya guys major kudos for climbing this! What an unbelievable adventure/climb this must have been. I would have felt humbled to be folloowing in the footsteps & handholds of some major names who've previously been up this.
But also, I think I would have refrained from writing anything up and posting it publically. The lambasting this report is receiving seems to be about par for the course. Climbs like this tend to polarize the climbing community (obviously). I think simply posting some pictures would have done the climb enough justice whilst avoiding the negative comments.
But never-the-less, congrats on a sweet, kick-ass climb!
lcarreau - Dec 5, 2010 10:20 pm - Voted 1/10
Wonders for your Karma.."The women, children and old men on the top
slowly starved to death, leaving their bodies
to settle there.
Therefore, because of this legend, the
Navajos do not want anyone to climb Shiprock
for fear of stirring up the ch'iidii, or rob
their corpses."
Woodie Hopper - Dec 6, 2010 12:59 am - Voted 5/10
AmbivalentI respect your right to climb this rock, but not to flaunt treading on the sensitivities of others. Great climb nonetheless. 5/10, can't have it both ways.
Klenke - Dec 6, 2010 2:47 am - Voted 10/10
Re: WellWhen the Frito Banditos climbed Ship Rock back in 2002 they reported that they had made "the 438th ascent of the mountain (in the 63 years since the first ascent) and only the 5th ascent this year.". 438 divided by 63 = 7 climbing parties per year making it to the top (not including the unknown number of other parties who don't make it so can't sign the register. Now, I totally understand this mountain can be and is sacred to the Navajo Nation, but if they were really serious about keeping people off of it they would be more proactive in that regard. There is no gate to keep you from driving right up to it. There are no No Trespassing signs anywhere. And there is no surveillance. There is no policing. Even when I was there a Navajo fellow conversed with me right underneath it and made no attempt to tell me I was trespassing or not welcome. Therefore, if they really cared that much, they would at least attempt some means of keeping climbers away. That's the reality on the ground. The quasi-reality of the Internet and those that laze on lounge chairs in their favorite cyberspace gossip salons is a completely different thing. And this is why it is not for you but for the Navajo to tell us (and show us) what they do and do not want us to do. It's their sanctuary. So let them be the ones to be sanctimonious.
Vicles - Dec 6, 2010 1:55 am - Voted 10/10
Harding would have climbed it!Integrity and respect are not synonymous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity
By the deff. of integrity, the OP's is only strenghened by spraying about his deeds, and standing behind them.
I want to point out that it's a Steck and Roper 50 Fucking Classic! What about respecting and honoring OUR history as climbers? What if El Cap was suddenly deemed "Jesus Mountain" and became offlimits? Would people still climb the Nose and post TR's about it? Of course. Because for many many climbers, the line, the history, the asthetics, and the movement trump politics, religion, etc. And Thank God for that. ;)
noahs213 - Dec 6, 2010 2:08 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Harding would have climbed it!Interesting to point out about the Totem Pole which along with Ship Rock is closed but even more closed since it's in the Tribal Loop. It's "sacred" but whenever alot of money is offered you can climb anywhere in the res it seems. Let's put Clint Eastwood on top, Hollywood Stars, IBM commercials, other commercials..etc. Very "not sacred" Ship Rock and Spider Rock are there most sacred summits though, but many have gotten permission from landowners quite easily. Not saying it's ok, just stating interesting points.
TR was a great inspiring read.
Vicles - Dec 6, 2010 4:47 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Harding would have climbed it!Nice. I would have just written; "Bullshit!" ;)
kamil - Dec 6, 2010 5:50 am - Voted 10/10
off-limit mountainsI somehow can't accept the concept of a mountain being off-limits to climbers. In most cases. And there are a few possible cases.
Most of all I can't agree with the concept of a 'private mountain'. For big landowners, common sense dictates that only their household, buildings and their immediate vicinity (curtilage? my legal English is limited) and cultivated land are obviously off limits. But forests, badlands, mountains being off limits to responsible ramblers? That's sick.
The right to roam is something basic to human nature. Of course with rights come responsibilities but I needn't mention such obvious things here.
The same with mountains being off limits for political reasons. I have no bones about illegally crossing political borders in the mountains.
Mountains in military areas - also something artificial to me. Play the game - climb and try not to get caught (or shot) if you dare, as far as your common sense allows.
Religion is a different ballgame. I have deep respect for religions, beliefs, faiths, whichever denomination. I would perhaps still try to climb a mountain, but... see below.
Environmental protection - another thing too. Some mountains or routes are off limits in particular seasons due to it - I understand it and would never climb then. In theory, if in a particular place even a single climb whichever time of the year, no matter how careful I would tread, could make irreversible damage to environment, that would perhaps be the only case I would refrain from climbing a mountain at all.
In some cases however, environmental regulations are a fig leaf for e.g. guiding companies blatantly making money, etc. I know such cases in Europe.
To sum up... In most of the cases above, having the resources and skills I would climb a particular mountain but keep a low profile. The more sensitive the issue, the less I would spray about it, simply not to make life harder for prospective climbers. There are some degrees to it:
E.g. I openly write in my TRs about not-so-legally crossing state borders in the Balkans, where regulations are vague and it's difficult to determine the current state of affairs, just to inform the community what they can expect. The pros outweigh the cons here.
'Off-limit private mountains' - what a disgusting concept! First I would negotiate to enter legally - I respect the landowners who respect climbers. If that was impossible I would quietly sneak in. Playing hide-and-seek with some gun-wielding farmers and rent-a-cops would be part of the fun. I would keep a low profile afterwards, not to make life harder for other climbers. I would gladly join a public campaign against those mountains being closed.
Having the possibility to climb e.g. Ship Rock, I would attempt it. Would keep a much lower profile than the authors of this TR though. In SP, I would maybe just post a few pics, make some vague references. Would tell my friends over a beer, and that's it. Out of respect for Navajo beliefs. In my own system of values, I can pay tribute to the mountain by climbing it, instead of 'conquering' it (there's no such thing to me!) but others may feel differently. BTW, good points raised by Klenke a few posts above. Still I give 10/10 for the story...
I understand the temptation to post such a TR, would feel it myself!
Had I the resources and skills to climb e.g. Kailash, I might go for it, hypothetically. If it's ever possible not to be seen. Maybe I would tell someone many years later, or maybe not :)
I might have gone over the top in some points, but that was on purpose, try to get my point...
lcarreau - Dec 6, 2010 8:29 am - Voted 1/10
Re: off-limit mountainsYou say you have a deep respect for religion, but would STILL
climb the landform ??? ??
Sorry, but I don't understand your (somewhat selfish) way of thinking.
You have to be a native American to understand what's going on here. I'm NOT a native American, but I have a right to express
my feelings and views, being a part of Society and all.
Please.. don't climb the mountain!
kamil - Dec 6, 2010 8:39 am - Voted 10/10
Re: off-limit mountainsLarry, I'll most probably never climb this mountain cos I live in another continent and if I make it to America I'll have other priorities...
I wrote above that for me climbing a mountain is a way of paying my tribute to it, not conquering it. I know others may have completely different feelings in this matter and I respect it, so if I ever climb a 'sacred' mountain, I'll try to refrain from spraying and bragging too openly about it.
Cheers,
Kamil
lcarreau - Dec 6, 2010 8:55 am - Voted 1/10
Re: off-limit mountainsThanks, but "these guys" sound like they're in the business of
conquering it rather than paying tribute to it. Guess I could be
wrong, but that's the message I'm getting..
History repeats itself. The native Americans were "conquered" in
the name of new land.
NOW, the LAND is being conquered, in the name of new Americans!
Dmitry Pruss - Dec 6, 2010 10:37 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Religion is differentHow is it different from any other landowner? Why should they be allowed to regulate conduct of non-members outside of their churches and halls?
The tribal faiths may be the last line of defense of the tribes, but they are also a convenient way to make the victims of colonial injustice content with their fate, and they are also a way a way to channel the people's sense of injustice into a form of xenophobia ... to vent their anger towards those who are simply not like them, while protecting their true oppressors.
The more controlling power one cedes to a religion, the less is this faith worth being respected. Render Caesar's unto Caesar, remember?
KujoA2 - Dec 6, 2010 9:46 am - Hasn't voted
Article?This was a good read, but I'd rather have seen an article on the front page discussing crags or mountains that are currently banned or on the fence, and what's being done for access, and what climbers can do to maintain access. (Respecting no-climb areas, or posting great reports about inspiring peaks, such as this one.) I'm reminded of the voluntary June climbing restriction on Devil's Tower.
Even if the place does have great climbing history, the FA was in what, 1939? I think the Navajo have you beat in the history category.
A-Lex - Dec 6, 2010 12:57 pm - Hasn't voted
Wow...I am not stoked on your send guys. I have met both of you, and I thought well of you before I read this. But, this is just plain disrespectful to the Navajo Nation and its people and certainly changes my opinions of y’all.
At least on the front page this raises the issue of access, which is damn important for climbers to address. So in that regard thanks for posting this.
-Alex
A-Lex - Dec 6, 2010 1:23 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Wow...Yeah not much more to say. I'm not trippin horribly - I just would have made other decisions is all. I doubt that I would see it differently sitting around the family night table though...anyway - keep climbing - just climb non-culturally significant sh*t!
A-Lex - Dec 6, 2010 2:00 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Wow...Yeah I am beginning to understand yours more as well. I still would not have climbed that thing, but I appreciate that it does appear some thought went into it. I would have been stoked if you guys mentioned talking to the elders and getting their approval! I have found that some of my interactions with Indians have been as rewarding as some of the climbs I've done.
mrchad9 - Dec 6, 2010 1:30 pm - Voted 10/10
Great AdventureI'm happy for the controversy over this one. I don't usually read trip reports, prefer to go on my own outings more, suppose I am selfish. But hearing rumblings I decided to give it a read and glad I did.
Sounds like an awesome trip and and memorable experience you will have the rest of your life, and your story had me from beginning to end. I see no reason for any regrets. No one was hurt, stolen from, abused, blah blah. The tribes will be fine. And your photos are spectacular.
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