Condivido il tuo punto di vista e anch'io non sopporto questi "esperti" di montagna ( tanto di moda d'estate o dopo tragedie come quelle del Nanga Parbat o del K2 ) che danno giudizi su tutto e consigli generici ridicoli. Molti poi mettono tutti gli incidenti che accadono in montagna ( da quelli degli escursionisti inesperti o dei cercatori di funghi a quelli dei rocciatori e degli alpinisti più preparati) in un grande calderone, concludendo l'intervento con la classica frase da bar "la montagna non perdona...".
Sono d'accordo che il silenzio sarebbe la cosa migliore, è giusto dare la notizia ma poi bisogna fermarsi lì, ogni caso è diverso e chi non era sul luogo dell'incidente e non conosceva bene la vittima non può dare nessun giudizio.
with an experienced point of view. I did laugh out loud about the icefall climbing crampons and axes used on 30-degree glacier slopes. I've wondered about that too!
Sometimes, all of humanity tends to PAINT with a broad brush!
I find it true that the human spirit has no bounds. In reality,
it is Mother Nature that surrounds us; molding us into what we are today. Nice page, Gabriele!! -Larry of AZ
Great polemic. I agree with much of what you say. However, somethings are not well enough spelt out and even internet enquiries haven't helped. What happened to Rene Demaison that took 342 hours near Mont Blanc?
There's a book about this story : 342 heures dans les Grandes Jorasses.
While opening, in winter, a new route on the N wall of G.Jorasses, together with Serge Gousseault, the bad weather and a fall of stone that cut 1 of the ropes gave them big problems.
Maurice Herzog, leader of the Rescue team, refused to take action: Gousseault died for exhaustion and Desmaison had to wait many days till an helicopter coming from Grenoble succeeded to land on the summit of G.Jorasses.
See also, above, the comment of Mihai Tanase and this internet page
"When someone dies on the mountain we have to say NOTHING : we were not there and don't know what happened and why"
Right. The recent death above Cooper Spur led to a comment from a search and rescue leader that the deceased "should have" been wearing a helmet. Probably, but what difference it would have made with a "watermelon sized" rock smacking somebody in the head is not apparent. Why torment survivors and relatives with remarks like this?
it's always the same old story : "he is dead because was not as clever, skilled, competent as ME, I am the best, the one ecc."
the EGO of stupid people is always ready to jump on every stage ... and, sometimes, even a kind of morbidity comes out
the other ones just think : poor boy, it was his day ... who knows which will be mine ?
I just got back from 3 weeks of climbing in that area. It was unbelievable the stuff I saw. Unprepared, overprepared (equipment), people attempting things that were way beyond their skills usually as a 2 person team, not paying attention to conditions etc. But in the end, I think you are right - when your time is up - your time is up and it doesn't matter. And dissecting often is just to no avail.
I think that the advertising about gear and adventure-travels can be considered guilty of many deaths on the mountains ...
but each can make a choice, even the choice about where and when to die
are easy news to sell, just like the one about serial killers natural disasters, etc...
I think that keeping respect is more important than bringing the news to people, this is the first rule that someone should follow to call himself a specialist.
A needed page, not only for this site.
Ciao Gabriele, sono d'accordissimo su tutto quello che dici.
Aggiungerei anche un commento, magari cinico e crudo: credo che il numero di morti in montagna, rispetto alla quantità di persone che ci vanno, sia bassissimo. E se ti capita di andare in posti frequentati , te ne accorgi guardandoti intorno. La percentuale di persone che "vaga" per i monti, senza cognizione di causa (senza sapere DOVE SI TROVA) è nettamente superiore a quelli che in montagna ci vanno in maniera COSCIENTE .
ciao mamo
I agree completely when you say "When someone dies on the mountain we have to say NOTHING : we were not there and don't know what happened and why"
The problem is that people who do not climb or hike think that the risk should be zero, and if it is not is only because of unexperience. On the contrary, you probably agree with me that zero risk on a mountain does not exist, not even when you are a simple hiker, as I mostly am. So, while some accidents are probably due to unexperience, other are simply fatalities and, in those cases, it is not fair to blame the victims for that. As a proof, some accidents happened this year involved also expert guides.
I think that we could be almost allowed to blame the victim only if a member of Alpine Rescue hurts or dies while operating on an accident that we are absolutely sure was caused by a stupid behaviour.
But the blame couldn't change anything ... so is useless
ganesh70 - Aug 8, 2008 5:52 am - Voted 10/10
Bell'articoloCondivido il tuo punto di vista e anch'io non sopporto questi "esperti" di montagna ( tanto di moda d'estate o dopo tragedie come quelle del Nanga Parbat o del K2 ) che danno giudizi su tutto e consigli generici ridicoli. Molti poi mettono tutti gli incidenti che accadono in montagna ( da quelli degli escursionisti inesperti o dei cercatori di funghi a quelli dei rocciatori e degli alpinisti più preparati) in un grande calderone, concludendo l'intervento con la classica frase da bar "la montagna non perdona...".
Sono d'accordo che il silenzio sarebbe la cosa migliore, è giusto dare la notizia ma poi bisogna fermarsi lì, ogni caso è diverso e chi non era sul luogo dell'incidente e non conosceva bene la vittima non può dare nessun giudizio.
mvs - Aug 9, 2008 5:21 pm - Voted 10/10
nice articlewith an experienced point of view. I did laugh out loud about the icefall climbing crampons and axes used on 30-degree glacier slopes. I've wondered about that too!
Gabriele Roth - Aug 11, 2008 1:53 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Risk and rescuesorry, my examples were not to be intended as an accusation, just a remind ...
chris.mueller - Aug 10, 2008 7:07 am - Voted 10/10
Well writtenTotally agree with you.
Chris
lcarreau - Aug 11, 2008 6:31 pm - Voted 10/10
Grande - Bravo!!Sometimes, all of humanity tends to PAINT with a broad brush!
I find it true that the human spirit has no bounds. In reality,
it is Mother Nature that surrounds us; molding us into what we are today. Nice page, Gabriele!! -Larry of AZ
Namara - Aug 22, 2008 5:31 pm - Hasn't voted
Rene DemaisonGreat polemic. I agree with much of what you say. However, somethings are not well enough spelt out and even internet enquiries haven't helped. What happened to Rene Demaison that took 342 hours near Mont Blanc?
Much obliged for information.
Regards
Gabriele Roth - Aug 23, 2008 1:51 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Rene DesmaisonThere's a book about this story : 342 heures dans les Grandes Jorasses.
While opening, in winter, a new route on the N wall of G.Jorasses, together with Serge Gousseault, the bad weather and a fall of stone that cut 1 of the ropes gave them big problems.
Maurice Herzog, leader of the Rescue team, refused to take action: Gousseault died for exhaustion and Desmaison had to wait many days till an helicopter coming from Grenoble succeeded to land on the summit of G.Jorasses.
See also, above, the comment of Mihai Tanase and this internet page
donhaller3 - Aug 28, 2008 8:39 pm - Hasn't voted
Good"When someone dies on the mountain we have to say NOTHING : we were not there and don't know what happened and why"
Right. The recent death above Cooper Spur led to a comment from a search and rescue leader that the deceased "should have" been wearing a helmet. Probably, but what difference it would have made with a "watermelon sized" rock smacking somebody in the head is not apparent. Why torment survivors and relatives with remarks like this?
Gabriele Roth - Aug 29, 2008 1:26 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Goodit's always the same old story : "he is dead because was not as clever, skilled, competent as ME, I am the best, the one ecc."
the EGO of stupid people is always ready to jump on every stage ... and, sometimes, even a kind of morbidity comes out
the other ones just think : poor boy, it was his day ... who knows which will be mine ?
Corax - Sep 6, 2008 11:10 am - Voted 10/10
Dead onGood one!
A lot of people in categories "X, Y and Z" should read this one.
klwagar - Sep 6, 2008 11:50 am - Voted 10/10
very interestingI just got back from 3 weeks of climbing in that area. It was unbelievable the stuff I saw. Unprepared, overprepared (equipment), people attempting things that were way beyond their skills usually as a 2 person team, not paying attention to conditions etc. But in the end, I think you are right - when your time is up - your time is up and it doesn't matter. And dissecting often is just to no avail.
Gabriele Roth - Sep 7, 2008 3:18 am - Hasn't voted
Re: very interestingI think that the advertising about gear and adventure-travels can be considered guilty of many deaths on the mountains ...
but each can make a choice, even the choice about where and when to die
Diveria - Sep 12, 2008 3:33 pm - Voted 10/10
Accidents on the mountainsare easy news to sell, just like the one about serial killers natural disasters, etc...
I think that keeping respect is more important than bringing the news to people, this is the first rule that someone should follow to call himself a specialist.
A needed page, not only for this site.
mamo - Sep 20, 2008 2:31 am - Hasn't voted
PostilllaCiao Gabriele, sono d'accordissimo su tutto quello che dici.
Aggiungerei anche un commento, magari cinico e crudo: credo che il numero di morti in montagna, rispetto alla quantità di persone che ci vanno, sia bassissimo. E se ti capita di andare in posti frequentati , te ne accorgi guardandoti intorno. La percentuale di persone che "vaga" per i monti, senza cognizione di causa (senza sapere DOVE SI TROVA) è nettamente superiore a quelli che in montagna ci vanno in maniera COSCIENTE .
ciao mamo
Gabriele Roth - Sep 20, 2008 3:25 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Postilllaconcordo !
ciao :)
lucabanfi - Sep 20, 2008 11:24 am - Voted 10/10
There is no zero riskI agree completely when you say "When someone dies on the mountain we have to say NOTHING : we were not there and don't know what happened and why"
The problem is that people who do not climb or hike think that the risk should be zero, and if it is not is only because of unexperience. On the contrary, you probably agree with me that zero risk on a mountain does not exist, not even when you are a simple hiker, as I mostly am. So, while some accidents are probably due to unexperience, other are simply fatalities and, in those cases, it is not fair to blame the victims for that. As a proof, some accidents happened this year involved also expert guides.
Gabriele Roth - Sep 20, 2008 3:33 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: There is no zero riskI think that we could be almost allowed to blame the victim only if a member of Alpine Rescue hurts or dies while operating on an accident that we are absolutely sure was caused by a stupid behaviour.
But the blame couldn't change anything ... so is useless