Thanks, yeah, it's fun, too. Some times I have to wonder at all the people who go to exercise clubs and pay money for it. }:-}
sealevelmick - Nov 15, 2008 1:08 am - Hasn't voted
howdy
liked the article, and thanks for the effort you've put in.
... but there's a coupe things im triping on.
first is about shearing the pins on the griphoist-
do you have a 32 box? are you putting blocks on the load?
also, about the explosives- 50 pounds?
for granite, (ive only helped set up a handfull of real blasts)
theres this stuff that a master blaster could, should, would use called 'kinepak'. and fifty pounds of it is enough to split the moon in half. maybe the proximity of the rare plants prevents the use of that type of explosive- no tarp you could cover them with would stop the flyrock from passing right through- the stuff has got to be traveling at a 1000fps. but in that case why not betanomit or some other type of no-license-needed explosive or expander?
and then, as far as the arresting people goes- i am a civilian, i am on a trail crew. to me that has never really been an option. i think LE would frown upon it. (it may even be against the law) at any rate i would hope to manage that risk way before it got to that point.
lastly- and this is hard for me to approach because the last thing i want is to be negative about what appears to be a very positive thing you have going on- but, what happened to the trail crew? i kind of cringe when i hear the best option is for people to do it for free. Take your profession- you might be a little dismayed if someone were to say 'well these guys are ok but the best way to do it is to have it done for free' all im saying is that i wish you were getting paid for what youre doing. i realize thats unlikely because USFS has cut most of thier trail programs but it was once a reality and from what ive heard the stan and inyo have still got good programs (which trace back to the ccc crews of the 30's and 40's and whose trailwork draws upon and reflects that tradition).
anyway, thanks again for getting people involved, and i hope you guys continue your great work- God knows its badly needed.
> liked the article, and thanks for the effort you've
> put in. but there's a coupe things im triping on.
It's good fun. I like hiking and camping, and at times I like rock climbing, but trail work followed by camping and hiking is the best. }:-}
> first is about shearing the pins on the griphoist-
> do you have a 32 box? are you putting blocks on the
> load?
I don't know what the make or model of the griphoist is. I'm one of the dumber trail workers when it comes to the design and decision makings. I do know that we usually use straight through cable without pulleys where ever possible and only use pulleys when we must since our cables are expensive and when we get kinks -- even with large radius pulleys -- it decreases the life of our cables.
> also, about the explosives- 50 pounds? for
> granite, (ive only helped set up a handfull
> of real blasts) theres this stuff that a
> master blaster could, should, would use
> called 'kinepak'. and fifty pounds of it
> is enough to split the moon in half.
LOL! I have no experience with commertcial explosives, but I think you're right -- which is why when we were told that 400 pounds would be purchased, I kind of boggled at the quanity.
What ever is left over will need to be traded to other regions who have a need, would be my guess.
> the stuff has got to be traveling at a 1000fps.
> but in that case why not betanomit or some other
> type of no-license-needed explosive or expander?
The amount of drilling and the amount of betonomite would be a whole lot, and only works well when the rock is fairly hard. We looked at using it there but the rock face is friable San Gabriel Granite with lots of fisures and cracks.
We used betonomite on a toilet access trail down from the Highway to the San Gabriel River, and it worked very well since the rocks we busted up and used for the trail bed were hard.
> and then, as far as the arresting people goes-
> i am a civilian, i am on a trail crew. to me
> that has never really been an option. i think
> LE would frown upon it. (it may even be against
> the law) at any rate i would hope to manage
> that risk way before it got to that point.
Any citizen in California can effect a citizen's arrest on another when a crime has been committed and a police officer or ex-police officer was not a witness. A citizen can not restrain, however, and of course the citizen is in a world of hurt if there is no evidence of a crime being committed or no evidence that the person they arrested committed the crime.
The notorious Scientology crime syndicate committed a "citizen's arrest" against a human rights advocate last month who was outside of their heavilly armed and fortified cult compound at Gilman Hot Springs last month. The violently insane criminals -- three of them -- assaulted the human rights advocate and then to cover up the crime filed fraudulent "citizen's arrest" against the human rights advocate.
It was all caught on video by other rights activists protesting against Scientology's crimes, and the fact that the people committing assault, committed a fraudulent citizen's arrest, and then filed false reports means that the three Scientology criminals will hopefully go to prison.
But the act of arresting someone for the commission of an actual crime of which there is actual evidence, that's comment and, in fact, it's done fairly often by corporate security guards.
People who are subjected to citizen's arrest can easiully sue the claimant who made the arrest, and very often they win because the person performing the arrest usually does it out of spite, hate, bigotry, racism, or some other reason -- such as Scientology trying to silence human rights advocates.
But legitimate citizen's arrests are protected by the courts. That doesn't mean that civil lawsuits against the person performing the arrest isn't costly, but it's protection against losing such lawsuits.
For me, I will never arrest anyone unless they constitute a fatal safety hazard or they have committed a violent crime or are in the commission of a violent crime, and even then only if it is safe to attempt to effect an arrest.
The USFS people ask politely for people to stay while the police arrive, and the let the cops examine the evidence and make the arrest. That's so much saner, yep.
> but, what happened to the trail crew? i kind
> of cringe when i hear the best option is for
> people to do it for free. Take your profession-
> you might be a little dismayed if someone were
> to say 'well these guys are ok but the best
> way to do it is to have it done for free' all
> im saying is that i wish you were getting paid
> for what youre doing. i realize thats unlikely
> because USFS has cut most of thier trail
> programs but it was once a reality and from
> what ive heard the stan and inyo have still
> got good programs (which trace back to the ccc
> crews of the 30's and 40's and whose trailwork
> draws upon and reflects that tradition).
The paid trail crew -- Marvin's company -- were contracted for a specific number of miles and sections on specific trails and when they were done, they asked if they could hang around and do some more and were told that there is no money for any further restoration.
The CCC -- oh man, they always impress me. When they work on a trail, the hump right along and get the job done and there's no way I have ever been able to keep up with them when they've been out.
Their crews get paid some small amount of cash for each day's work, but man they really work hard and hot!
But there are no paid crews working routinely, it's all volunteers. And the San Gabriel Mountains Trailbuilders are the number 1 organization in Southern California and at that they'll also build bridges, rock walls, and lots of other things that eat in to the actual miles of trail that they accomplish each year.
Still, it would be nice if there were more volunteers with the SGMTBs since that way more trails would get more attention, and hikers wouldn't have to life their children over obstructions. }:-}
> anyway, thanks again for getting people
> involved, and i hope you guys continue your
> great work- God knows its badly needed.
Thanks, and it really is great fun. I've been going up and down the canyons for like 25 years and it was only like 4 years ago that I learned about the volunteer efforts being done by the SGMTBs. I got with them so I could get training and so that I could get exercise and spent even more time in the moun tains.
Probably the only time I've ever worried about what I was doing was on our Mount Waterman trail clearing project from end to end, done over two days. I was trembling on the edge of crying off and asking for help carrying my tools and equipment, I was that exhausted.
It was so bad that I was hallucinating and had ocular migranes and other vision problems. I have never been so exhausted and I did things with the Indian Sporings Air Force Base. }:-} 'Course that was in my youth.
Thanks for the informative article about trail building, and especially the info on the Upper Bear Creek Trail. I hike up Lower Bear Creek last year, probably the beginning of April, but by the time I got to Smith Saddle it was getting late so I turned around and went back down. So I didn't realize that the trail below that was wiped out. I've corresponded a bit with Ben White about the trail after the Curve fire so have been somewhat familiar with your work there. I'll be back in L.A. in March, I'll try to remember to contact you and see if I can help out on a crew sometime then. Vic
T Sharp - Nov 15, 2008 12:21 am - Voted 10/10
ThanksFor all the hard work, and coordinating the important effort of all the volunteers! A well written and interesting read!
Cheers;
Tim
DamOTclese - Nov 20, 2008 8:38 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: ThanksThanks, yeah, it's fun, too. Some times I have to wonder at all the people who go to exercise clubs and pay money for it. }:-}
sealevelmick - Nov 15, 2008 1:08 am - Hasn't voted
howdyliked the article, and thanks for the effort you've put in.
... but there's a coupe things im triping on.
first is about shearing the pins on the griphoist-
do you have a 32 box? are you putting blocks on the load?
also, about the explosives- 50 pounds?
for granite, (ive only helped set up a handfull of real blasts)
theres this stuff that a master blaster could, should, would use called 'kinepak'. and fifty pounds of it is enough to split the moon in half. maybe the proximity of the rare plants prevents the use of that type of explosive- no tarp you could cover them with would stop the flyrock from passing right through- the stuff has got to be traveling at a 1000fps. but in that case why not betanomit or some other type of no-license-needed explosive or expander?
and then, as far as the arresting people goes- i am a civilian, i am on a trail crew. to me that has never really been an option. i think LE would frown upon it. (it may even be against the law) at any rate i would hope to manage that risk way before it got to that point.
lastly- and this is hard for me to approach because the last thing i want is to be negative about what appears to be a very positive thing you have going on- but, what happened to the trail crew? i kind of cringe when i hear the best option is for people to do it for free. Take your profession- you might be a little dismayed if someone were to say 'well these guys are ok but the best way to do it is to have it done for free' all im saying is that i wish you were getting paid for what youre doing. i realize thats unlikely because USFS has cut most of thier trail programs but it was once a reality and from what ive heard the stan and inyo have still got good programs (which trace back to the ccc crews of the 30's and 40's and whose trailwork draws upon and reflects that tradition).
anyway, thanks again for getting people involved, and i hope you guys continue your great work- God knows its badly needed.
DamOTclese - Nov 20, 2008 9:06 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: howdy> liked the article, and thanks for the effort you've
> put in. but there's a coupe things im triping on.
It's good fun. I like hiking and camping, and at times I like rock climbing, but trail work followed by camping and hiking is the best. }:-}
> first is about shearing the pins on the griphoist-
> do you have a 32 box? are you putting blocks on the
> load?
I don't know what the make or model of the griphoist is. I'm one of the dumber trail workers when it comes to the design and decision makings. I do know that we usually use straight through cable without pulleys where ever possible and only use pulleys when we must since our cables are expensive and when we get kinks -- even with large radius pulleys -- it decreases the life of our cables.
> also, about the explosives- 50 pounds? for
> granite, (ive only helped set up a handfull
> of real blasts) theres this stuff that a
> master blaster could, should, would use
> called 'kinepak'. and fifty pounds of it
> is enough to split the moon in half.
LOL! I have no experience with commertcial explosives, but I think you're right -- which is why when we were told that 400 pounds would be purchased, I kind of boggled at the quanity.
What ever is left over will need to be traded to other regions who have a need, would be my guess.
> the stuff has got to be traveling at a 1000fps.
> but in that case why not betanomit or some other
> type of no-license-needed explosive or expander?
The amount of drilling and the amount of betonomite would be a whole lot, and only works well when the rock is fairly hard. We looked at using it there but the rock face is friable San Gabriel Granite with lots of fisures and cracks.
We used betonomite on a toilet access trail down from the Highway to the San Gabriel River, and it worked very well since the rocks we busted up and used for the trail bed were hard.
> and then, as far as the arresting people goes-
> i am a civilian, i am on a trail crew. to me
> that has never really been an option. i think
> LE would frown upon it. (it may even be against
> the law) at any rate i would hope to manage
> that risk way before it got to that point.
Any citizen in California can effect a citizen's arrest on another when a crime has been committed and a police officer or ex-police officer was not a witness. A citizen can not restrain, however, and of course the citizen is in a world of hurt if there is no evidence of a crime being committed or no evidence that the person they arrested committed the crime.
The notorious Scientology crime syndicate committed a "citizen's arrest" against a human rights advocate last month who was outside of their heavilly armed and fortified cult compound at Gilman Hot Springs last month. The violently insane criminals -- three of them -- assaulted the human rights advocate and then to cover up the crime filed fraudulent "citizen's arrest" against the human rights advocate.
It was all caught on video by other rights activists protesting against Scientology's crimes, and the fact that the people committing assault, committed a fraudulent citizen's arrest, and then filed false reports means that the three Scientology criminals will hopefully go to prison.
But the act of arresting someone for the commission of an actual crime of which there is actual evidence, that's comment and, in fact, it's done fairly often by corporate security guards.
People who are subjected to citizen's arrest can easiully sue the claimant who made the arrest, and very often they win because the person performing the arrest usually does it out of spite, hate, bigotry, racism, or some other reason -- such as Scientology trying to silence human rights advocates.
But legitimate citizen's arrests are protected by the courts. That doesn't mean that civil lawsuits against the person performing the arrest isn't costly, but it's protection against losing such lawsuits.
For me, I will never arrest anyone unless they constitute a fatal safety hazard or they have committed a violent crime or are in the commission of a violent crime, and even then only if it is safe to attempt to effect an arrest.
The USFS people ask politely for people to stay while the police arrive, and the let the cops examine the evidence and make the arrest. That's so much saner, yep.
> but, what happened to the trail crew? i kind
> of cringe when i hear the best option is for
> people to do it for free. Take your profession-
> you might be a little dismayed if someone were
> to say 'well these guys are ok but the best
> way to do it is to have it done for free' all
> im saying is that i wish you were getting paid
> for what youre doing. i realize thats unlikely
> because USFS has cut most of thier trail
> programs but it was once a reality and from
> what ive heard the stan and inyo have still
> got good programs (which trace back to the ccc
> crews of the 30's and 40's and whose trailwork
> draws upon and reflects that tradition).
The paid trail crew -- Marvin's company -- were contracted for a specific number of miles and sections on specific trails and when they were done, they asked if they could hang around and do some more and were told that there is no money for any further restoration.
The CCC -- oh man, they always impress me. When they work on a trail, the hump right along and get the job done and there's no way I have ever been able to keep up with them when they've been out.
Their crews get paid some small amount of cash for each day's work, but man they really work hard and hot!
But there are no paid crews working routinely, it's all volunteers. And the San Gabriel Mountains Trailbuilders are the number 1 organization in Southern California and at that they'll also build bridges, rock walls, and lots of other things that eat in to the actual miles of trail that they accomplish each year.
Still, it would be nice if there were more volunteers with the SGMTBs since that way more trails would get more attention, and hikers wouldn't have to life their children over obstructions. }:-}
> anyway, thanks again for getting people
> involved, and i hope you guys continue your
> great work- God knows its badly needed.
Thanks, and it really is great fun. I've been going up and down the canyons for like 25 years and it was only like 4 years ago that I learned about the volunteer efforts being done by the SGMTBs. I got with them so I could get training and so that I could get exercise and spent even more time in the moun tains.
Probably the only time I've ever worried about what I was doing was on our Mount Waterman trail clearing project from end to end, done over two days. I was trembling on the edge of crying off and asking for help carrying my tools and equipment, I was that exhausted.
It was so bad that I was hallucinating and had ocular migranes and other vision problems. I have never been so exhausted and I did things with the Indian Sporings Air Force Base. }:-} 'Course that was in my youth.
Any way, thanks for the thanks.
mvs - Dec 4, 2008 4:27 pm - Voted 10/10
very interestingI think there is a lot of depth behind your explanations. Thanks for sharing and giving us a glimpse into the world of trail builders.
Vic Hanson - Jan 4, 2009 2:16 pm - Voted 10/10
Good workThanks for the informative article about trail building, and especially the info on the Upper Bear Creek Trail. I hike up Lower Bear Creek last year, probably the beginning of April, but by the time I got to Smith Saddle it was getting late so I turned around and went back down. So I didn't realize that the trail below that was wiped out. I've corresponded a bit with Ben White about the trail after the Curve fire so have been somewhat familiar with your work there. I'll be back in L.A. in March, I'll try to remember to contact you and see if I can help out on a crew sometime then. Vic