ExcitableBoy - Nov 4, 2011 11:54 am - Hasn't voted
Thanks
It is not finished yet. I am co-writing the article with Hotoven and we still need to finish a couple of tasks, but I am pleased with its progress so far.
if you two start a series, know that many of lives will be grateful...this has probably already saved mine, and I haven't even touched my first "eight-thousander"...yet =)
A really good online article. There are a few errors though. PM me if you want to discuss. For instance:
6) Mountaineering Skills
Needs to be changed to "Expedition Mountaineering Skills". And the sentence "The mountaineer plies his trade on big mountains but generally by their standard routes, eschewing technical difficulty for a lighter pack and a more casual experience."
Needs to be changed to "The expedition moutaineer..."
The comment on 'generally by their standard routes' is wrong. Expedition mountaineering is heavier and generally utilized on most routes of the big mountians. Both Alpine style and Expedition style climbers are mountaineers. But the difference lies in how one approaches equipment, planning, and logistics.
Most big mountains (including mixed routes on them) to this day are still climbed expedition style. This is mostly a function of size, weather, cold, remote location... These routes require hauling all that gear that goes with it. It simply becomes difficult to go light and fast. Light and fast in this instance would equate to cold and dead.
That's not to say there are alpine style ascents done (in fact they are done every season on those peaks), but I just hope the next generation heeds warning, that if you try an alpine style ascent on a monster peak (because it's inherently $cheaper and easier to stage a trip like this), make sure you educate yourself on 'both sides'.
At the same time, the critic is just that...a critic. Those 'old smokey pipe mountaineer types' do alot of talking, but no walkin.
So hats off to you - the guy actually doing the walkin'.
I appreciate your input, however, I specifically did not include expedition style mountaineering. This was a conscious decision, not an error. Perhaps the phrase 'big mountains' is too ambiguous, but as you are from Ontario I can understand why you might think that the mountaineering skills nearly every climber in the PNW learns as a matter of course might seem like they are only useful on expeditions. To be clear, I was thinking big as in the Swiss and French Alps, Canadian Rockies, and the Cascades - mostly 4,000 meter and smaller peaks.
Within that constraint, Mt Rainier, Mont Blanc, and similar mountains have standard routes that require less gear and technical ability than hard routes such as the Curtis or Peutery Ridges. The 'mountaineer' lacking rock and ice skills is stuck doing the standard routes while the alpinist is free to climb much harder, more technical routes.
Certainly truly big (Denali, 7,000 and 8,000 meter peaks) are climbed most often by expedition style with a few climbers attempting the technical roues alpine style.
OK, I totally get it now. It's specific to Alpine style. Yes, it makes sense not to mention it. Big Mountains in the context of your article is in reference to those Intermediate sized peaks.
But I am still confused on your difference between Alpinist. Let's ignore the european terms for a second. In North America, the sport (or whatever we want to call it, lifestyle, as some said in the forum) is called Mountaineering. This is the game of mountain climbing. Within the game, there are 2 main climbing philosophies. Expedition Style vs Alpine Style. This has been the case historically since god knows when.
When you state "The 'mountaineer' lacking rock and ice skills is stuck doing the standard routes", while the 'alpinist'..., this doesn't really make sense because the Alpinist IS A MOUNTAINEER. An alpinist is a Mountaineer who has adopted the Alpine Style mentality, approach, and gear selection.
Yet, your reference to the moderate sized peaks is important, because very few of these peaks require an expedition style approach, so expedition mountaineer doesn't even need to be mentioned.
And your totally right by referencing fixed lines.
On the moderate stuff, in these ranges you mention, one can argue it's ALL alpine style. This type of climbing is generally referred to as ALPINE CLIMBING, it encompases Rock, Ice, Snow etc...ie. Mixed. It can be climbed in 1 day mostly, or a couple to a few days.
Saying the 'mountaineer' lacks .... is saying he, the alpinist lacks...., because he is in fact a mountaineer :)
The word 'Alpinist' does not equate to skill level. ie. attacking harder routes, as opposed to standard routes. An Alpinist could do standard routes if he chose too. It has nothing to do with the grading system of the climb. All it means is this bloke is an ALPINE MOUNTAINEER.
Honestly, this is very confusing, and it's probably not important. All in all good article. People are probably like - what the?
Thanks for the concern Bergshrund, glad you spoke up. Terms and their usage are very important, I'm glad you see that. This page is designed to help beginners get a full understanding of the activity in general, if the information is enough to spark interest in an individual, we provided links for them to further educate themselves. We did not intend to get super deep and split hairs.
I remember the twight book when it was first released, but I never bought it. I checked the index though on Amazon it looks interesting, I may pick up a used copy. The book goes into detail what alpine-style mountaineers deal with.
Sure you can correct me, but you should first make sure there is something to correct. The only reason I brought this up Excitable, is that 5000 views have been made on your page.
I thought it would be wise to not have the next generation of mountaineers going around thinking that an alpinist is not a mountaineer.
ExcitableBoy - Dec 10, 2011 11:28 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Twight Book
I never said alpinists are not mountaineers. Of course alpinists are mountaineers, but not all mountaineers are alpinists. Mountaineering does not necessarily involve technical rock/ice but alpine climbing by its very definition does.
As an example, many people are capable of climbing the West Buttrash on Denali, a mountaineering route, but few lack the rock, ice, and big mountain skills to climb the Cassin Ridge, The CZD Direct, the Denali Diamond or other big, technical alpine routes on the mountain.
Anyone who has actually done a few proper alpine routes immediately knows the difference between what it takes to be an alpinist vs a mere mountaineer.
Hi, im looking to try my hand at alpinism. I presently reside in New-Brunswick Canada and am an avid backcountry outdoorsman however I feel I need to find more.
After reading many articles, forums and books I feel like its time in my life to up the adventure. But there is one problem im having a hard time figuring out "where to start" and who to look for, for information and what I need to do to get the training required for proper knowledge and conditionning.
Ive seen courses given in different regions however are these the right choice? What to look for to avoid gimics or miss leading information.
Vitaliy M. - Nov 4, 2011 11:32 am - Voted 10/10
wowGreat article EB! Really enjoyed it...again.
ExcitableBoy - Nov 4, 2011 11:54 am - Hasn't voted
ThanksIt is not finished yet. I am co-writing the article with Hotoven and we still need to finish a couple of tasks, but I am pleased with its progress so far.
benwood - Nov 5, 2011 1:25 am - Hasn't voted
thanks mani am (admittedly) on of the backpacker/hiker guys on SP and this is a nice accumulation of info. thanks for the effort.
ExcitableBoy - Nov 6, 2011 12:13 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Great Job!Thanks! Many of the photographs are not mine; I raided the photos of my friends and climbing partners to illustrate this article.
ozarkmac - Nov 8, 2011 3:59 pm - Voted 10/10
Reinhold Messner liked your articleIn fact he shared it on his FB page. Well done!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Reinhold-Messner/23286622286
ExcitableBoy - Nov 8, 2011 4:32 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Reinhold Messner liked your articleWhaaaaat!?
zoilo - Nov 8, 2011 6:34 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Reinhold Messner liked your articleCongratulations, you are in the star sistem, you touch something deep in your article, well done.
Hotoven - Nov 9, 2011 11:20 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Reinhold Messner liked your articleWOW! Great stuff, were glad the page is getting read! Makes me want to start a series!
wetworx - Nov 9, 2011 12:18 pm - Voted 10/10
thank youif you two start a series, know that many of lives will be grateful...this has probably already saved mine, and I haven't even touched my first "eight-thousander"...yet =)
ExcitableBoy - Nov 9, 2011 4:34 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: thank youI was actually thinking along the same lines, sort of an 'Alpinist's Dirty Little Tricks' kind of thing.
Bergshrund - Dec 1, 2011 5:56 pm - Hasn't voted
Good ArticleA really good online article. There are a few errors though. PM me if you want to discuss. For instance:
6) Mountaineering Skills
Needs to be changed to "Expedition Mountaineering Skills". And the sentence "The mountaineer plies his trade on big mountains but generally by their standard routes, eschewing technical difficulty for a lighter pack and a more casual experience."
Needs to be changed to "The expedition moutaineer..."
The comment on 'generally by their standard routes' is wrong. Expedition mountaineering is heavier and generally utilized on most routes of the big mountians. Both Alpine style and Expedition style climbers are mountaineers. But the difference lies in how one approaches equipment, planning, and logistics.
Most big mountains (including mixed routes on them) to this day are still climbed expedition style. This is mostly a function of size, weather, cold, remote location... These routes require hauling all that gear that goes with it. It simply becomes difficult to go light and fast. Light and fast in this instance would equate to cold and dead.
That's not to say there are alpine style ascents done (in fact they are done every season on those peaks), but I just hope the next generation heeds warning, that if you try an alpine style ascent on a monster peak (because it's inherently $cheaper and easier to stage a trip like this), make sure you educate yourself on 'both sides'.
At the same time, the critic is just that...a critic. Those 'old smokey pipe mountaineer types' do alot of talking, but no walkin.
So hats off to you - the guy actually doing the walkin'.
ExcitableBoy - Dec 1, 2011 6:28 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Good ArticleHi,
I appreciate your input, however, I specifically did not include expedition style mountaineering. This was a conscious decision, not an error. Perhaps the phrase 'big mountains' is too ambiguous, but as you are from Ontario I can understand why you might think that the mountaineering skills nearly every climber in the PNW learns as a matter of course might seem like they are only useful on expeditions. To be clear, I was thinking big as in the Swiss and French Alps, Canadian Rockies, and the Cascades - mostly 4,000 meter and smaller peaks.
Within that constraint, Mt Rainier, Mont Blanc, and similar mountains have standard routes that require less gear and technical ability than hard routes such as the Curtis or Peutery Ridges. The 'mountaineer' lacking rock and ice skills is stuck doing the standard routes while the alpinist is free to climb much harder, more technical routes.
Certainly truly big (Denali, 7,000 and 8,000 meter peaks) are climbed most often by expedition style with a few climbers attempting the technical roues alpine style.
Bergshrund - Dec 8, 2011 3:41 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Good ArticleOK, I totally get it now. It's specific to Alpine style. Yes, it makes sense not to mention it. Big Mountains in the context of your article is in reference to those Intermediate sized peaks.
But I am still confused on your difference between Alpinist. Let's ignore the european terms for a second. In North America, the sport (or whatever we want to call it, lifestyle, as some said in the forum) is called Mountaineering. This is the game of mountain climbing. Within the game, there are 2 main climbing philosophies. Expedition Style vs Alpine Style. This has been the case historically since god knows when.
When you state "The 'mountaineer' lacking rock and ice skills is stuck doing the standard routes", while the 'alpinist'..., this doesn't really make sense because the Alpinist IS A MOUNTAINEER. An alpinist is a Mountaineer who has adopted the Alpine Style mentality, approach, and gear selection.
Yet, your reference to the moderate sized peaks is important, because very few of these peaks require an expedition style approach, so expedition mountaineer doesn't even need to be mentioned.
And your totally right by referencing fixed lines.
On the moderate stuff, in these ranges you mention, one can argue it's ALL alpine style. This type of climbing is generally referred to as ALPINE CLIMBING, it encompases Rock, Ice, Snow etc...ie. Mixed. It can be climbed in 1 day mostly, or a couple to a few days.
Saying the 'mountaineer' lacks .... is saying he, the alpinist lacks...., because he is in fact a mountaineer :)
The word 'Alpinist' does not equate to skill level. ie. attacking harder routes, as opposed to standard routes. An Alpinist could do standard routes if he chose too. It has nothing to do with the grading system of the climb. All it means is this bloke is an ALPINE MOUNTAINEER.
Honestly, this is very confusing, and it's probably not important. All in all good article. People are probably like - what the?
Hotoven - Dec 8, 2011 3:29 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Good ArticleThanks for the concern Bergshrund, glad you spoke up. Terms and their usage are very important, I'm glad you see that. This page is designed to help beginners get a full understanding of the activity in general, if the information is enough to spark interest in an individual, we provided links for them to further educate themselves. We did not intend to get super deep and split hairs.
Bergshrund - Dec 10, 2011 8:30 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Good ArticleTrue. They would eventually have to read the Freedom bible anyways, so i'm sure they would figure it out on their own.
ExcitableBoy - Dec 8, 2011 12:05 pm - Hasn't voted
The Gospel according to MarkGo read 'Extreme Alpinism, Climbing High, Fast and Light' Bt Mark Twight.
Also, having spent an awful lot of time studying statistics and logic, I have correct you.
"Saying the 'mountaineer' lacks .... is saying he, the alpinist lacks...., because he is in fact a mountaineer :)"
All squares are rectangles, yet not all rectangles are squares.
Bergshrund - Dec 10, 2011 10:25 pm - Hasn't voted
Twight BookI remember the twight book when it was first released, but I never bought it. I checked the index though on Amazon it looks interesting, I may pick up a used copy. The book goes into detail what alpine-style mountaineers deal with.
Sure you can correct me, but you should first make sure there is something to correct. The only reason I brought this up Excitable, is that 5000 views have been made on your page.
I thought it would be wise to not have the next generation of mountaineers going around thinking that an alpinist is not a mountaineer.
ExcitableBoy - Dec 10, 2011 11:28 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Twight BookI never said alpinists are not mountaineers. Of course alpinists are mountaineers, but not all mountaineers are alpinists. Mountaineering does not necessarily involve technical rock/ice but alpine climbing by its very definition does.
As an example, many people are capable of climbing the West Buttrash on Denali, a mountaineering route, but few lack the rock, ice, and big mountain skills to climb the Cassin Ridge, The CZD Direct, the Denali Diamond or other big, technical alpine routes on the mountain.
Anyone who has actually done a few proper alpine routes immediately knows the difference between what it takes to be an alpinist vs a mere mountaineer.
TimB - Aug 17, 2012 11:18 am - Voted 10/10
Great article,EBThis is one I am going to read over and over again.
Thank you for your efforts!
Dgodin05 - Dec 28, 2017 12:13 pm - Hasn't voted
Great article!!Hi, im looking to try my hand at alpinism. I presently reside in New-Brunswick Canada and am an avid backcountry outdoorsman however I feel I need to find more.
After reading many articles, forums and books I feel like its time in my life to up the adventure. But there is one problem im having a hard time figuring out "where to start" and who to look for, for information and what I need to do to get the training required for proper knowledge and conditionning.
Ive seen courses given in different regions however are these the right choice? What to look for to avoid gimics or miss leading information.
Any information would be greatly appreciatted.
Thank you all.
DG.