Yeti wrote:

ExcitableBoy wrote:Big, strong fellas usually like a heavier tool.

No one has ever called me a big strong fella before.... not a man, anyways.

With a name like Yeti I just assumed

Yeti wrote:I'm not sure a leashless tool is right for me, due in no small part to my tendancy to be a clutz. What is the benefit of going leashless?

I've cragged with a couple of the early leashless tools (Petzl Ergo, original version) and Grivel Monster. We were 'mixed' climbing, and it was very freeing to be able to match hands, use alternate hand positions, etc. No more hassle wrestling to get your gloves in and out of the leash to place a screw, which is nice. But I have only been cragging, never alpine with leashless tools.

While it may seem the whole world has gone leashless, there are plenty of folks who have tried it and stuck with their leashed tools. I wouldn’t fret about it. When you decide to upgrade tools test drive a pair and make up your mind then. I’ve said before, I did my hardest pure WI climbs in CM Pulsars, Scarpa Invernos, and Lowe Lightfangs. Bugs McKeith put up WI 6 with inferior gear yet. Certainly the latest and greatest gear will make ice climbing easier, but you can still climb as hard as your head will let you with leashed tools.

To quote Ron Kauk "John Wayne never wore spandex".

JHH60 wrote: I still like leashes on alpine ice where losing a tool often means really losing it...

Having heard a tool clang and whizz by me while belaying, I klinda like my climber having leashes, too.

I've always just let the tool hang from my wrist when I had to futz with screws et al. It's a bit anoying, but it works. I've done some dry tooling with the Quasars and they worked great... within the scope of my limited ability. I supposed I'd have more freedom if I had somethinglike a Monster to open up more ways of holding it.

Are you gonna be doing really aggressive technical routes in the near future?

I really think Venoms are the biggest bang for the buck, by a long shot, right now... the most versatile tool currently available. Unless you're wanting to start doing really gnarly shit right now, I'd be getting a pair of those.

Leashless does not mean unattached, btw... it just means it's not attached at the wrist. My Vipers are set up for leashless- they're attached to my harness via elasticized umbilicals. I HAVE actually climbed with them completely unattached, and on a very steep, extremely committed route..... never again. I didn't drop a tool, but I would have been dead (or just leaving expensive gear on the route) if I had.

Ben B. wrote: on a very steep, extremely committed route.

Just out of curiosity, what route would this be?

ExcitableBoy wrote:

Ben B. wrote: on a very steep, extremely committed route.

Just out of curiosity, what route would this be?

I'd have to consult the guidebook to give you a name, but that would have been one of my forays on I-Rock.

Ben B. wrote:

ExcitableBoy wrote:

Ben B. wrote: on a very steep, extremely committed route.

Just out of curiosity, what route would this be?

I'd have to consult the guidebook to give you a name, but that would have been one of my forays on I-Rock.

I guessed your profile pic was on I Rock.

kylenicolls wrote: I was originally looking to just get a second bent neck axe along with my straight 65 but then figured why not get a pair of older tools for about the same price as a BD Venom that could be more appropriate.

Is 130 worth it? You reccomend a different approach? These are primarily to get my foot in the door for steeper slopes.

Couple of thoughts for you from my perspective/opinion. First one is your straight shaft tool (Venom)may not be the best for doing steeper terrain. I don't say that lightly having climbed a bunch of grade 5 and some grade 6 water ice with straight shafted tools and leashes in the distant past. Using both curved picks and reverse curved picks and literally everything in between.

They say it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. And I am the first to tell you that most of the difficult pure ice climbs that have been done every where in the world were done with straight shafted tools. And most of those tools about as effective by comparison to the current generation of tools as a wooden club with a nail in them. And I really like my old clubs

The first tools that really changed ice climbing was the Simond Chacal with a reversed curve pick. (1979/1980) Same basic pick every tool uses now.

Weight? Weight has almost zero as in -0- to do with the performance of an ice tool. Swing balance and the ability of the pick to be easily placed and more importantly easily removed does. Reverse curve picks and the resulting design changes are definative for both.

Cutting edge ice tool weights in order introduction by production dates ?
Chacal 1# 12oz
Forrest Life Time 1# 13oz
BD C/F straight Piolet 1# 9oz
BD C/F Black Profit hammer 1# 7oz
1st Gen c/f Cobra adze 1# 9oz
1st gen Quark hammer 1# 7 oz
1st gen Nomic 1# 6oz

The lightest tool listed, a Nomic so easily out climbs them all, by anyone's standard, for the rank beginner or the true expert.

Not a huge help on your decision I know. And price is obviously always a concern.
You will quickly out climb the tools you have pictured. (which were never very good even on the day they were first produced) Not that they are bad tools just that there are so many better ones available now (or then) for not a lot more money. Once you swing a betetr tool you will realise you wasted your $130. on those BDs.

I would really encourage you to think ahead even a season or two and buy the best you can afford with your $130. Even if you have to save up a bit more to get just one really good "modern" technical tool. Think about going leashless on one or both tools initially and use a set of umbilicals. Yes leashless...it also the place you really want to start on steeper terrain. Even for a beginner on steep terrain. As long as you use a umbilical system and you are using a modern tool specifically designed for leashless climbing.

I've been doing this a llloooonnngg time and I shit you not. If you want to really climb steep terrain easily, securely and adroitly get some modern tools and umbilicals. Your money and time in the mtns will be better spent.

Apparently after these X-15's, BD made a X-15 BRS that was a aluminum shaft wrapped in carbon fiber. Or so I have read

My ageing and drunken memory of this is: X-15s were an aluminum core wrapped in carbon fibre sheet - black with purple and silver stickers - which was relatively fat and a bit slippy. The red aluminum X-15, as in the OP, came later, and are probably worth $100 tops for a pair, if you're really desperately poor.

The BRS was a thick 'soft' black hourglass-shaped moulding on the Black Prophet tools, which had a curve in the lower shaft, then updated to CF, which were the top BD tools before the Cobra.

Damien Gildea wrote:

Apparently after these X-15's, BD made a X-15 BRS that was a aluminum shaft wrapped in carbon fiber. Or so I have read

My ageing and drunken memory of this is: X-15s were an aluminum core wrapped in carbon fibre sheet - black with purple and silver stickers - which was relatively fat and a bit slippy. The red aluminum X-15, as in the OP, came later, and are probably worth $100 tops for a pair, if you're really desperately poor.

The BRS was a thick 'soft' black hourglass-shaped moulding on the Black Prophet tools, which had a curve in the lower shaft, then updated to CF, which were the top BD tools before the Cobra.

Not to match my aging, drunken memory with yours, but I recall the BD X-15s that replaced the Chouinard X tools (with the blue fiberglass shafts) simply had black fiberglass shafts. I used both, however, maybe there was some carbon fiber in the X-15 and I just did not know it. I am certain, however, that the BRS was simply the X-15 wrapped in rubber to combat the slippery nature of the X-15 shaft when icy. The orginal Black Prophets used the rubber coated hourglass shaped moulding (these were available with both a straight and curved lower shaft), but were never billed as BRS. That was a designation used on the X-15 only.

I am not really hurting for money, I just don't see the point in spending 200 + when I am still a bit of a novice at ice climbing and technical. These are just to get me in the door, hEll even if I only use them for a summer and lose 40 bucks I can't really say it wouldn't be worth it

I think they will serve their purpose. I have used leashless on mixed foam in a climb gym on a 30ft wall. Trading tools is fun and good for technique. I am also not sure where I will wind up this summer. I just grad'd and am trying to find a engineering job. Not sure where I will wind up.

Thanks for the words.