ExcitableBoy wrote:C4's, definitely. The 0.5 - 3.0 set would be a great starter set.

Ditto. I'd start here for sure. I use my #3 quite often (probably 33%-50% of the pitches I climb). If you have it, you'll probably find place to use it.

Okay everyone. I see where the confusion has come from. It's the terminology, old names vs new names. I haven't bought any new gear in about ten years.

In the old times when you said a C3, it meant a Camalot that was 3 inches wide, a fist size. When you said C4, it meant a camalot that went to 4 inches, your foot or knee size. That's why I recommended the C3.

Now I understand the new terminology. C3 cam series refers to smaller cams. C4 series refer to larger cams. For example a C4, #3 is the large hand/fist size, 3 inches wide.

For a beginner rack, I figure you need doubles in One and two inch for hand cracks. They plug in great for many hand cracks in the 5.8-5.9 range. That's where Bob is heading at this time.

Marc I think this would be easier if you just joined up with Bob, Daria, Vitaliy, Marmaduke and me in the Alabama Hills.

Marcsoltan wrote:
Now I understand the new terminology. C3 cam series refers to smaller cams. C4 series refer to larger cams. For example a C3, #3 is the large hand/fist size, 3 inches wide.

Black Diamond C3 Camalots have three lobes, while C4s have four lobes. That is the main difference and the reason for the naming convention, although C3s do generally cover smaller sizes and C4s cover larger sizes.

Marcsoltan wrote:For a beginner rack, I figure you need doubles in One and two inch for hand cracks. They plug in great for many hand cracks in the 5.8-5.9 range. That's where Bob is heading at this time.

The OP seemed to be budget minded so I wouldn't recommend buying doubles right off the bat, unless one is climbing at Indian Creek. The money would be better spent rounding out the rack and stocking up on sewn slings and carabiners. The four largest hexes cover the hand sizes and are lighter and cheaper. Personally, other than big walls and other aid climbs, I've rarely carried doubles in cams, even on long, multipitch climbs up to 5.11.

Outer Space, a 5.9 crack route, features a 300' perfect hand crack. I remember climbing it on one occasion, thinking I needed to conserve my #1 and #2 Camalots since the crack was that size. I used nuts and hexes and slung chicken heads. When I got to Library Ledge which bisects the crack into two perfect pitches, I realized I had not placed my cams at all.

Marcsoltan wrote:In the old times when you said a C3, it meant a Camalot that was 3 inches wide, a fist size. When you said C4, it meant a camalot that went to 4 inches, your foot or knee size. That's why I recommended the C3.

Well, I'm not sure how old you are, but not exactly. I think what you mean or meant to write that an old #3 camalot tipped out at about 3'' and and old #4, actually tipped out at about 5", but you often used it for a 4" crack.

As a guy who remembers when camming devices, Friends, first came on the market, one thing I can tell you is that it has been hard keeping up with all the new camming devices that have come out, and continue to do so.

Pretty much the only benefit I see to the C3's is a bit of weight savings and few isolated incidences where they fit a particular crack better . I like the extra cam coverage from the C4's as they have 4 lobes making surface contact as opposed to 3. C4's tend to hold better in horizontal cracks as well. I prefer the C4's and have a double set up to size 3. I also have a size 4......comes in handy on Devil's Tower. Even then, the last time I took someone up Durrance, 40-50% of my pieces were stoppers. You can protect many climbs with just stoppers and hexes if you really want to and can get creative with directional placements.