CLOSURES: GROTTO & CTP AREAS

Regional discussion and conditions reports for the Golden State. Please post partners requests and trip plans in the California Climbing Partners forum.
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simonov

 
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by simonov » Fri May 14, 2010 2:42 pm

fossana wrote:
redneck wrote:I hope that doesn't interfere with a planned hike on the Mishe Mokwa Trail to Sandstone Peak.


It shouldn't. The trails and rest of the climbing area were open as of last Sunday.


Thanks. I'm taking some kids, mostly girls, up to Sandstone Peak.

If you would like to employ your mad rock climbing skillz to inspire some high school kids, meet us at the Sandstone Peak trailhead parking lot tomorrow morning at 9:30. I'm the tall guy with the beard and white hat.

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Guyzo

 
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by Guyzo » Fri May 14, 2010 3:28 pm

HandjamMasterC wrote:What on earth could be worth climbing in Malibu? Go climb in Idylwild for Christ's sake!




Craig....... when the tool comes to your local area to close it, how about we don't do anything about helping you with your local access issue.

You can always go to the Andes to climb. :wink:

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Fri May 14, 2010 3:41 pm

Guyzo wrote:
HandjamMasterC wrote:What on earth could be worth climbing in Malibu? Go climb in Idylwild for Christ's sake!




Craig....... when the tool comes to your local area to close it, how about we don't do anything about helping you with your local access issue.

You can always go to the Andes to climb. :wink:


But Guy, we need to first establish why the TOOL is doing so in the first place.

The TOOL doesn't just CLOSE local crags for the sake of self gratification. Have yet to ever see that.

There is always some rule/law violation or destructive behavior that occurred. Always.

That is what needs to start being seriously addressed here GUY. That is the problem. Not the TOOL.

Unfortunately, people just don't get that aspect of the issue. Nope. Cuz in order to do just that, they have to admit fault on their part and a need to change their behavior and attitude.

And that GUY, does not look like it will happen anywhere in the near future.


There is a sense of entitlement that prevails out there amongst many in the climbing community. That they can go anywhere, place bolts in whichever fashion they wish and establish a "climbing route/crag". All this without even attempting to consult the local Land Mger.

Then, when the Local Land Mger sees what is going on within the land that they are charged with caring for, observes behaviors that are not in line with the rules and laws which are in place, then attempts to communicate with the parties and is basically told to fk off. Well, the LM and TOOL have no choice. Especially when the land that the folks established their entitlement on, is not theirs in the first place.

And then when the heat is on, they cry foul on the part of the TOOL and use many excuses to justify their behavior. The #1 being that "they didn't know and were not told not to etc". Never to admit any fault in the whole deal even when the "TOOL" shuts "HIS" crag down to access.

It is always the "TOOLS" fault. Just like it was with one's parents when they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and one half eaten in their mouth.

What then GUY?


The entire Echo Cliffs MSP area holds some very delicate, unique and sensitive/endangered eco-systems. For anyone to even contemplate intruding onto that area and start rap bolting and placing routes, is just plain selfish.

edit: Addition

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by The Chief » Fri May 14, 2010 9:32 pm

HandjamMasterC wrote:If the Tool closes down Lovers Leap and Yosemite ( my local areas as you say ) there won't be any climbing left.


Odd... that is the exact same thing that both areas climbing community, The Grotto and X-Mass Tree Pass, are claiming.

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by The Chief » Fri May 14, 2010 10:58 pm

HandjamMasterC wrote:
Odd... that is the exact same thing that both areas climbing community, The Grotto and X-Mass Tree Pass, are claiming.


Those places ain't no Yosemite - ha ha ha !


Apparently, to them it is......

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Guyzo

 
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by Guyzo » Sat May 15, 2010 3:01 am

Rick, This is sort of old news.

The NPS got gentle Ben and his possie to pull those climbs in the Grotto.

(see the old thread about the mud)

I supported them 100% in their actions.

What was done to the rock, plants and trees was so far over the line was unbelievable.

I would quit climbing completely if that is how climbing crags are developed.

But after speaking with "the man" he is happy, for now.

I don't know of any S-it being directed at them by climbers. - at all.

and I do check the net - all of it I can find.

So if I get out there this Sunday I will look around and ask folks just what they think.

I would wager no one cares.

It's not like they closed down Astro Man or anything. These climbs that gentle Ben made were worthless, generic face climbs. IMHO the ones down the way, that didn't require "mass cleaning" are much better.

____________________________________________________________________________________

The whole idea of closing down a place, anyplace, is troubling.

Christmas Tree Pass is a good example.

So they don't wish it to become another Josh.

I ask who gave THEM the power to decide, without any reason, just what is the best use of the land they manage?

We give them that power and if we don't like what they are doing WE need to do something about it.

It is time for all of us climbers to support political people who would rein in the power of un elected land managers.

The land managers only follow the directives of the elected officials, its called policy and policy is not made by the "servants" it's made by the masters.
(our elected officials)

So I know this is not going to go over to well at SP but I will say this......

enuf is enuf, we can't make the whole world a pure wilderness, it's not and will never be.. Any pinko, dem, enviro zellot who thinks otherwise should be Voted out of office ASAP.

They have been in power long enuf, IMHO.

All of the folks in power need to go, they have failed to do a good job, it's time for a big change.

Rant over.

GK

:wink:

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Sat May 15, 2010 4:03 am

Thanks Guy!

Many of the Wilderness Designations have been in place for long period of time and for ALL forms of recreation to abide by. Not just climbers.

In regards to X-Mass Tree Pass, we must remember that it is in an established Designated Wilderness Area. Again, the manner in which the new routes are going up, according to the LEO that I spoke with yesterday, was very suspect as to how quickly they had appeared.
Also, some of the individuals have clearly been using Power Drills in that area by their own admission to the NPS.

There are some other factors involved that he would not share with me as well. From what I gathered, this has been going on for well over a year and some of the folks have in fact been spoken to and asked to cease their bolting.

As in the Echo Cliff issue, there was never any communication coming from the climbing community towards the NPS. Only until after the NPS grew very concerned at the bolting behavior that was occurring and began the study to NOT CLOSE the area down, rather to remove the over 120 new bolts that have recently appeared and the remainder that have been in place, did any one from the climbing community approach the NPS and wish to talk things out.


The LEO shared with me that if any form of PROACTIVE communication/consultation had been established originating from the climbing community over a year ago, this most likely would have been resolved at a much lower level and the bolts would be probably be staying.

Again, my point, much of the climbing community is not PROACTIVE with the local LM's in establishing protocols, permission and time lines in how to establish the area. Instead, they do as they wish, in some cases, and actually violate the local rules/laws that are in place. The community has become REACTIVE for the most part. It will continue at it's proliferation till the LM deems it necessary to stop the behavior in order to preserve the area from any further intrusion that results in a variety of issues, as the one at Echo Cliffs.

Proactive Communication with the LM's from the local climbing community when in the beginning stages of establishing an area, will make a difference and can only result in positive outcomes. This must also continue on a regular basis in order to maintain the rapport that will prevent any small issues to growing into ones that may endanger the open ACCESS that all have been enjoying.

Sadly, when folks from the climbing community tell the LEO/LM's to fk off, then the game is over and the climbing community will lose. That is a given.

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Re: Worthless, Generic face climbs?

by The Chief » Sat May 15, 2010 3:34 pm

andrewsolow wrote:So, the park ranger I talked to at least 9 months ago is claiming that no climbers ever contacted him before? So, it's our fault that he wrote and published a plan that says that there is virtually no climbing in Christmas Tree Pass without consulting with the Access Fund or any other climbers first?
See: http://www.accessfund.org/atf/cf/%7B1F5726D5-6646-4050-AA6E-C275DF6CA8E3%7D/AF%20NPS%20MOU.pdf


This is a generic general agreement for all the Parks in the U.S. and not specific to the Christmas Tree Pass area. As an Attorney at Law, you should know that. This indicates absolutely no specific agreement between the local Climbers and the NPS SUP at Christmas Tree Pass/LMRA.

Interesting though, that within this generic agreement, it indicates that an open and consistent rapport and dialogue should be established and then prevail between the local Climbing Community and the LM.

I have yet to see that this was established in this case on the part of the Climbing Community. They in fact should have initiated this contact and communication IMO to ensure that all their activities were legal and approved by the LM.

andrewsolow wrote:If the Park Planner had just Googled Christmas Tree Pass rock climbing, he would have found the Rockclimbing.com website which has at least 30 route descriptions on it and Email addresses for the climbers who post to that website. He also would have found about 250 posts on Supertopo, a copy of the first CTP guide book, a bunch of climbing photos and more contact information for people who climb at CTP. He also would have found more posts, route descriptions and photographs re: CTP on Mountain Project.


It is not the LM's responsibility to go "Googling" info on potential activities that are possibly occurring within their lands. To even ASSUME and expect them to is completely ludicrous and totally unrealistic.

andrewsolow wrote:Obviously, the perps who rap bolted a bunch of routes on a 60 foot tall formation that can easily be top roped contributed to the problem. But, the local Park Ranger with the masters degree, the badge and the bad attitude also contributed to the problem.


This is one of several violations of late that has in fact occurred and was documented which I did not want to publish publicly as I did not know if it was a valid claim. To add, this as well as the others in question, were done with a Power Drill in a Designated Wilderness Area. And this personal attack and personal assumption on the LM, does not show respect nor a willingness to cooperate with them and does not help to show a positive face in order resolve this matter either.

andrewsolow wrote:And, anyone who uses a paint ball gun to deface 1,500 year old petroglyphs should be shot on site, decapitated and have his head placed on a pole in public view until it rots. Paint Ball vandalism just happened at CTP about 6 weeks ago. See: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/mar/24/man-accused-vandalizing-petroglyphs-while-shooting/ Unfortunately, the miscreant was only arrested and not decapitated.


A totally moot point. Has absolutely no bearing on the Climbing Issue at hand. Just because others are violating the law, does not excuse any other activity which may or actually does. You as an Attorney should in fact know this.

This post is one that may or may not exhibit credit or discredit to the parties involved in this issue.

I have my opine.

As I posted before, ignorance of the rules/law and assuming that the law approves since one has not been caught, are not a valid excuse nor will they ever hold up in a court of law. Attorneys at Law damn well should know that. This post clearly shows the prevailing negative attitude towards the LM's and an unwillingness to admit fault of any kind in this matter.

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Sun May 16, 2010 12:11 am

Me a Ranger or an attorney... funny.

No, I am retired Navy Chief Petty Officer of 24 years that was duly taught how to respectfully approach and communicate with any individual in a position of authority, regardless of entity.

First off, they don't need to communicate with you. No, you need to communicate with them.

In this and any other ACCESS case, I am a climber that has and currently am working different ACCESS ISSUES on my home turf from Whitney up to Lee Vining Cnyn. I am in constant communication with well over 9 different local, State and Federal LM/LEO's that govern 21 well established climbing areas in that region. I am in the midst (have been for over 14 months) of a major one with the current Mt. Williamson/Baxter SBHS Closure that has been in effect since 1971. The Area Sup is indeed being stubborn and not budging even after all the State and Fed F&G agencies officially state this closure is out dated, no longer a necessity nor needed. I will persist to have dialogue with the Sup in a respectful and courteous manner. Also, working a joint agreement with the local and private sector in attempting to get more water sources to LVC to supply the the canyon with larger amounts of Ice for the entire climbing community. And I am spear heading the current Alabama Hills, Pine Creek and Rock Creek Anchor and bolt replacement projects. My hands are full but I will persist in all endeavors in a courteous and respectful manner towards each LM that oversees these areas.

I have been very privileged to have had some very good mentors in the 80's and the early 90's regarding Access Issues and how to effectively handle them. The first rule they pounded into my head, the LM always wins if you do not exercise due respect at all times, take responsibility for any negative behavior/actions and be totally humble in any public forum in regards to the LM's position.

- The fact remains that some folks indeed violated the law as you and others in this issue have publicly admitted. Not once but several times over a span of a year or so in regards to the Wilderness Act of 1964 and the LMRA Rules and Regs that are current in order to enforce the Act. The following provision located in Sec.4 (a) is the "Catch All" that gives any LM in which a Desig Wilderness Area is under, the authority to do what is needed in order to enforce the Act:

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this Act, each agency administering any area designated as wilderness shall be responsible for preserving the wilderness character of the area and shall so administer such area for such other purposes for which it may have been established as also to preserve its wilderness character.


- No "Official" dialogue had been established between yourselves and the NPS Sup of the LMRA until well after his LEO's started observing and documenting the violations.

Andrew, we as climbers need to admit our wrongs when wrongs have been done. We need to humble ourselves when the LM confronts us on our behaviors if indeed they violated any policy or law that is in place. We can not use the fact that other activities may be violating the law as a defense for us to do the same. Nor can we play ignorant to the local laws and designations. And, we need to communicate in a respectable manner each and every time we meet with the LM in regards to our issue. Pointing the finger at and disrespecting the LM will never do anything other than getting them more upset and close minded to our cause. I was taught to approach any LM as if you are approaching any other Law Enforcement Officer.

You all have an uphill battle on your hands, regardless to how many people write the Area NPS SUP. They have the upper hand in this case IMO as they did at Arches NP and at Williamson Rock, regardless the cause of imposed restrictions or closure.

I also highly suggest that you all change your attitude towards how you approach this particular LM in any open public forum.

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Sun May 16, 2010 2:48 am

andrewsolow wrote:In the world that you came from, you learned to do what you are told and follow the chain of command.

But, what you failed to learn is that the United States of America is supposed to be run by and for tne people. The people are in charge. Government employees work for the people. The people make the rules. Government employees are just supposed to enforce them.

Government employees are supposed to act respectully toward the people. Government employees are NOT supposed to treat us like we are a bunch of peons. And, I didn't pay more money in taxes last year than you probably earned so that a Park Ranger who is functionally one of my employees can abuse my tax dollars and treat me like dirt.


No Andrew, they are all just doing their duty and their job.

If every recreational activity did as they wished in any Designated Wilderness Area, then there surely would not be any wilderness left. Would there now?

Remember, you, me anyone that is a climber, are not the only activity out their utilizing the Public Lands. We need to follow the law equally as any other entity/activity. Period.
Last edited by The Chief on Sun May 16, 2010 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by The Chief » Sun May 16, 2010 2:55 am

andrewsolow wrote:The Chief's posts on this thread are antithetical to the best interests of the rock climbing community. And, he should be scourged.


WOW.... we are getting nasty now are we.

You aren't the first to state that and I guarantee you won't be the last.

Call me what you want. But it is only fair that the entire rest of the story be told so that everyone can make a fair evaluation of this CTP story.





“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence”
John Quincy Adams
Last edited by The Chief on Sun May 16, 2010 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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