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Postby The Chief » Thu May 13, 2010 7:30 pm

What do the regional, State and designated USGS TOPO MAP indicate?

edit: Just looked at the NV Gazetteer and guess what... it is in there and the Wilderness Boundary is clearly visible. Even indicates it in Wilderness Areas Section at the front of the book..Yikes!
Last edited by The Chief on Fri May 14, 2010 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Chief » Thu May 13, 2010 7:48 pm

Gary Schenk wrote:
The Chief wrote:Did anyone actually go into the Lake Mead NRA Ranger Station, converse with the local LEO's and get informed on the local bolting/FAing policy from them? And communicate your intentions with them?

Or, did you all do as many do out there, ASSUME that is was OK and went ahead and did the FA's/bolting?


Chief, you should drive out to the pass sometime. This isn't Josh, or Alabama Hills or Owens Gorge. There are no NPS facilities, there is no ranger station. There are no rangers. It's real desert.


That is why it is and has been a Designated Wilderness Area. To keep it that way and from becoming another Josh etc!

That is the exact BEEF the LEOS and NPS Rangers have!!! It is the job that you pay them to do.
Last edited by The Chief on Thu May 13, 2010 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby butitsadryheat » Thu May 13, 2010 7:51 pm

Gary Schenk wrote:
The Chief wrote:
Gary Schenk wrote:That cuts both ways. Nowhere on the Lake Mead NRA map does it indicate wilderness areas. Nowhere in the area of Christmas Tree Pass or Spirit Mountain is there an indication of any sort that you are entering a wilderness area. Not a single sign.


Gary...

According to this map which is readily accessible via the Lake Mead NPR NPS website, the area in question is clearly defined within the SPIRIT MOUNTAIN WILDERNESS as I see it.

http://www.nps.gov/lake/planyourvisit/u ... eSouth.pdf

I found it here...

http://www.nps.gov/lake/planyourvisit/m ... JUMP_64167

So your claim of not being informed as to the Wilderness Boundaries....


And according to this readily available map, there is no wilderness area:
http://www.nps.gov/lake/planyourvisit/upload/map_LAME_colorbrochure_inside.pdf


Gary, ^^^^
Maybe you should've discounted the quality of the map when you read the url for it :lol:
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Postby The Chief » Thu May 13, 2010 7:53 pm

Gary Schenk wrote:From now on I will consult Rand McNally before any backcountry trips.


I have an easier and better suggestion, stop in at the regional NPS or USFS Visitor Center in which the area in question is located, and consult the LEO. $100 bucks says it'll save ya from having to buy any Rand Mac.
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Postby The Chief » Thu May 13, 2010 10:46 pm

Gary,

You damn well know that there is major NPS Ranger/LEO Station at Katherine Landing not more than 15 miles or so from the turn off on hwy 20.

Come on dude... you know better.

Yes Gary, been there lots long before you started going there as I posted on ST on my way down to Cochise back in the early to mid 90's.

I have also spent many a days out of Katherine paddling in the mid 90's as well.

I am not buying this "I didn't know" dance Gary.

Nor am I buying the song that it's out in the middle of no where so....

Not from you. Not from someone that has been at this game as long as you have. Especially after your many knowledgeable, very in-depth and thoroughly researched posts regarding issues identical to this one, over the years here on SP.
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Postby simonov » Fri May 14, 2010 2:42 pm

fossana wrote:
redneck wrote:I hope that doesn't interfere with a planned hike on the Mishe Mokwa Trail to Sandstone Peak.


It shouldn't. The trails and rest of the climbing area were open as of last Sunday.


Thanks. I'm taking some kids, mostly girls, up to Sandstone Peak.

If you would like to employ your mad rock climbing skillz to inspire some high school kids, meet us at the Sandstone Peak trailhead parking lot tomorrow morning at 9:30. I'm the tall guy with the beard and white hat.
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Postby Guyzo » Fri May 14, 2010 3:28 pm

HandjamMasterC wrote:What on earth could be worth climbing in Malibu? Go climb in Idylwild for Christ's sake!




Craig....... when the tool comes to your local area to close it, how about we don't do anything about helping you with your local access issue.

You can always go to the Andes to climb. :wink:
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Postby The Chief » Fri May 14, 2010 3:41 pm

Guyzo wrote:
HandjamMasterC wrote:What on earth could be worth climbing in Malibu? Go climb in Idylwild for Christ's sake!




Craig....... when the tool comes to your local area to close it, how about we don't do anything about helping you with your local access issue.

You can always go to the Andes to climb. :wink:


But Guy, we need to first establish why the TOOL is doing so in the first place.

The TOOL doesn't just CLOSE local crags for the sake of self gratification. Have yet to ever see that.

There is always some rule/law violation or destructive behavior that occurred. Always.

That is what needs to start being seriously addressed here GUY. That is the problem. Not the TOOL.

Unfortunately, people just don't get that aspect of the issue. Nope. Cuz in order to do just that, they have to admit fault on their part and a need to change their behavior and attitude.

And that GUY, does not look like it will happen anywhere in the near future.


There is a sense of entitlement that prevails out there amongst many in the climbing community. That they can go anywhere, place bolts in whichever fashion they wish and establish a "climbing route/crag". All this without even attempting to consult the local Land Mger.

Then, when the Local Land Mger sees what is going on within the land that they are charged with caring for, observes behaviors that are not in line with the rules and laws which are in place, then attempts to communicate with the parties and is basically told to fk off. Well, the LM and TOOL have no choice. Especially when the land that the folks established their entitlement on, is not theirs in the first place.

And then when the heat is on, they cry foul on the part of the TOOL and use many excuses to justify their behavior. The #1 being that "they didn't know and were not told not to etc". Never to admit any fault in the whole deal even when the "TOOL" shuts "HIS" crag down to access.

It is always the "TOOLS" fault. Just like it was with one's parents when they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and one half eaten in their mouth.

What then GUY?


The entire Echo Cliffs MSP area holds some very delicate, unique and sensitive/endangered eco-systems. For anyone to even contemplate intruding onto that area and start rap bolting and placing routes, is just plain selfish.

edit: Addition
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Postby HandjamMasterC » Fri May 14, 2010 9:16 pm

HandjamMasterC wrote:
What on earth could be worth climbing in Malibu? Go climb in Idylwild for Christ's sake!





Craig....... when the tool comes to your local area to close it, how about we don't do anything about helping you with your local access issue.

You can always go to the Andes to climb.


If the Tool closes down Lovers Leap and Yosemite ( my local areas as you say ) there won't be any climbing left.
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Postby The Chief » Fri May 14, 2010 9:32 pm

HandjamMasterC wrote:If the Tool closes down Lovers Leap and Yosemite ( my local areas as you say ) there won't be any climbing left.


Odd... that is the exact same thing that both areas climbing community, The Grotto and X-Mass Tree Pass, are claiming.
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Postby HandjamMasterC » Fri May 14, 2010 10:50 pm

Odd... that is the exact same thing that both areas climbing community, The Grotto and X-Mass Tree Pass, are claiming.


Those places ain't no Yosemite - ha ha ha !
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Postby The Chief » Fri May 14, 2010 10:58 pm

HandjamMasterC wrote:
Odd... that is the exact same thing that both areas climbing community, The Grotto and X-Mass Tree Pass, are claiming.


Those places ain't no Yosemite - ha ha ha !


Apparently, to them it is......
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Postby Guyzo » Sat May 15, 2010 3:01 am

Rick, This is sort of old news.

The NPS got gentle Ben and his possie to pull those climbs in the Grotto.

(see the old thread about the mud)

I supported them 100% in their actions.

What was done to the rock, plants and trees was so far over the line was unbelievable.

I would quit climbing completely if that is how climbing crags are developed.

But after speaking with "the man" he is happy, for now.

I don't know of any S-it being directed at them by climbers. - at all.

and I do check the net - all of it I can find.

So if I get out there this Sunday I will look around and ask folks just what they think.

I would wager no one cares.

It's not like they closed down Astro Man or anything. These climbs that gentle Ben made were worthless, generic face climbs. IMHO the ones down the way, that didn't require "mass cleaning" are much better.

____________________________________________________________________________________

The whole idea of closing down a place, anyplace, is troubling.

Christmas Tree Pass is a good example.

So they don't wish it to become another Josh.

I ask who gave THEM the power to decide, without any reason, just what is the best use of the land they manage?

We give them that power and if we don't like what they are doing WE need to do something about it.

It is time for all of us climbers to support political people who would rein in the power of un elected land managers.

The land managers only follow the directives of the elected officials, its called policy and policy is not made by the "servants" it's made by the masters.
(our elected officials)

So I know this is not going to go over to well at SP but I will say this......

enuf is enuf, we can't make the whole world a pure wilderness, it's not and will never be.. Any pinko, dem, enviro zellot who thinks otherwise should be Voted out of office ASAP.

They have been in power long enuf, IMHO.

All of the folks in power need to go, they have failed to do a good job, it's time for a big change.

Rant over.

GK

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Postby The Chief » Sat May 15, 2010 4:03 am

Thanks Guy!

Many of the Wilderness Designations have been in place for long period of time and for ALL forms of recreation to abide by. Not just climbers.

In regards to X-Mass Tree Pass, we must remember that it is in an established Designated Wilderness Area. Again, the manner in which the new routes are going up, according to the LEO that I spoke with yesterday, was very suspect as to how quickly they had appeared.
Also, some of the individuals have clearly been using Power Drills in that area by their own admission to the NPS.

There are some other factors involved that he would not share with me as well. From what I gathered, this has been going on for well over a year and some of the folks have in fact been spoken to and asked to cease their bolting.

As in the Echo Cliff issue, there was never any communication coming from the climbing community towards the NPS. Only until after the NPS grew very concerned at the bolting behavior that was occurring and began the study to NOT CLOSE the area down, rather to remove the over 120 new bolts that have recently appeared and the remainder that have been in place, did any one from the climbing community approach the NPS and wish to talk things out.


The LEO shared with me that if any form of PROACTIVE communication/consultation had been established originating from the climbing community over a year ago, this most likely would have been resolved at a much lower level and the bolts would be probably be staying.

Again, my point, much of the climbing community is not PROACTIVE with the local LM's in establishing protocols, permission and time lines in how to establish the area. Instead, they do as they wish, in some cases, and actually violate the local rules/laws that are in place. The community has become REACTIVE for the most part. It will continue at it's proliferation till the LM deems it necessary to stop the behavior in order to preserve the area from any further intrusion that results in a variety of issues, as the one at Echo Cliffs.

Proactive Communication with the LM's from the local climbing community when in the beginning stages of establishing an area, will make a difference and can only result in positive outcomes. This must also continue on a regular basis in order to maintain the rapport that will prevent any small issues to growing into ones that may endanger the open ACCESS that all have been enjoying.

Sadly, when folks from the climbing community tell the LEO/LM's to fk off, then the game is over and the climbing community will lose. That is a given.
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