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Re: Worthless, Generic face climbs?

Postby The Chief » Sat May 15, 2010 3:34 pm

andrewsolow wrote:So, the park ranger I talked to at least 9 months ago is claiming that no climbers ever contacted him before? So, it's our fault that he wrote and published a plan that says that there is virtually no climbing in Christmas Tree Pass without consulting with the Access Fund or any other climbers first?
See: http://www.accessfund.org/atf/cf/%7B1F5726D5-6646-4050-AA6E-C275DF6CA8E3%7D/AF%20NPS%20MOU.pdf


This is a generic general agreement for all the Parks in the U.S. and not specific to the Christmas Tree Pass area. As an Attorney at Law, you should know that. This indicates absolutely no specific agreement between the local Climbers and the NPS SUP at Christmas Tree Pass/LMRA.

Interesting though, that within this generic agreement, it indicates that an open and consistent rapport and dialogue should be established and then prevail between the local Climbing Community and the LM.

I have yet to see that this was established in this case on the part of the Climbing Community. They in fact should have initiated this contact and communication IMO to ensure that all their activities were legal and approved by the LM.

andrewsolow wrote:If the Park Planner had just Googled Christmas Tree Pass rock climbing, he would have found the Rockclimbing.com website which has at least 30 route descriptions on it and Email addresses for the climbers who post to that website. He also would have found about 250 posts on Supertopo, a copy of the first CTP guide book, a bunch of climbing photos and more contact information for people who climb at CTP. He also would have found more posts, route descriptions and photographs re: CTP on Mountain Project.


It is not the LM's responsibility to go "Googling" info on potential activities that are possibly occurring within their lands. To even ASSUME and expect them to is completely ludicrous and totally unrealistic.

andrewsolow wrote:Obviously, the perps who rap bolted a bunch of routes on a 60 foot tall formation that can easily be top roped contributed to the problem. But, the local Park Ranger with the masters degree, the badge and the bad attitude also contributed to the problem.


This is one of several violations of late that has in fact occurred and was documented which I did not want to publish publicly as I did not know if it was a valid claim. To add, this as well as the others in question, were done with a Power Drill in a Designated Wilderness Area. And this personal attack and personal assumption on the LM, does not show respect nor a willingness to cooperate with them and does not help to show a positive face in order resolve this matter either.

andrewsolow wrote:And, anyone who uses a paint ball gun to deface 1,500 year old petroglyphs should be shot on site, decapitated and have his head placed on a pole in public view until it rots. Paint Ball vandalism just happened at CTP about 6 weeks ago. See: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/mar/24/man-accused-vandalizing-petroglyphs-while-shooting/ Unfortunately, the miscreant was only arrested and not decapitated.


A totally moot point. Has absolutely no bearing on the Climbing Issue at hand. Just because others are violating the law, does not excuse any other activity which may or actually does. You as an Attorney should in fact know this.

This post is one that may or may not exhibit credit or discredit to the parties involved in this issue.

I have my opine.

As I posted before, ignorance of the rules/law and assuming that the law approves since one has not been caught, are not a valid excuse nor will they ever hold up in a court of law. Attorneys at Law damn well should know that. This post clearly shows the prevailing negative attitude towards the LM's and an unwillingness to admit fault of any kind in this matter.
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Postby The Chief » Sun May 16, 2010 12:11 am

Me a Ranger or an attorney... funny.

No, I am retired Navy Chief Petty Officer of 24 years that was duly taught how to respectfully approach and communicate with any individual in a position of authority, regardless of entity.

First off, they don't need to communicate with you. No, you need to communicate with them.

In this and any other ACCESS case, I am a climber that has and currently am working different ACCESS ISSUES on my home turf from Whitney up to Lee Vining Cnyn. I am in constant communication with well over 9 different local, State and Federal LM/LEO's that govern 21 well established climbing areas in that region. I am in the midst (have been for over 14 months) of a major one with the current Mt. Williamson/Baxter SBHS Closure that has been in effect since 1971. The Area Sup is indeed being stubborn and not budging even after all the State and Fed F&G agencies officially state this closure is out dated, no longer a necessity nor needed. I will persist to have dialogue with the Sup in a respectful and courteous manner. Also, working a joint agreement with the local and private sector in attempting to get more water sources to LVC to supply the the canyon with larger amounts of Ice for the entire climbing community. And I am spear heading the current Alabama Hills, Pine Creek and Rock Creek Anchor and bolt replacement projects. My hands are full but I will persist in all endeavors in a courteous and respectful manner towards each LM that oversees these areas.

I have been very privileged to have had some very good mentors in the 80's and the early 90's regarding Access Issues and how to effectively handle them. The first rule they pounded into my head, the LM always wins if you do not exercise due respect at all times, take responsibility for any negative behavior/actions and be totally humble in any public forum in regards to the LM's position.

- The fact remains that some folks indeed violated the law as you and others in this issue have publicly admitted. Not once but several times over a span of a year or so in regards to the Wilderness Act of 1964 and the LMRA Rules and Regs that are current in order to enforce the Act. The following provision located in Sec.4 (a) is the "Catch All" that gives any LM in which a Desig Wilderness Area is under, the authority to do what is needed in order to enforce the Act:

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this Act, each agency administering any area designated as wilderness shall be responsible for preserving the wilderness character of the area and shall so administer such area for such other purposes for which it may have been established as also to preserve its wilderness character.


- No "Official" dialogue had been established between yourselves and the NPS Sup of the LMRA until well after his LEO's started observing and documenting the violations.

Andrew, we as climbers need to admit our wrongs when wrongs have been done. We need to humble ourselves when the LM confronts us on our behaviors if indeed they violated any policy or law that is in place. We can not use the fact that other activities may be violating the law as a defense for us to do the same. Nor can we play ignorant to the local laws and designations. And, we need to communicate in a respectable manner each and every time we meet with the LM in regards to our issue. Pointing the finger at and disrespecting the LM will never do anything other than getting them more upset and close minded to our cause. I was taught to approach any LM as if you are approaching any other Law Enforcement Officer.

You all have an uphill battle on your hands, regardless to how many people write the Area NPS SUP. They have the upper hand in this case IMO as they did at Arches NP and at Williamson Rock, regardless the cause of imposed restrictions or closure.

I also highly suggest that you all change your attitude towards how you approach this particular LM in any open public forum.
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Postby The Chief » Sun May 16, 2010 2:48 am

andrewsolow wrote:In the world that you came from, you learned to do what you are told and follow the chain of command.

But, what you failed to learn is that the United States of America is supposed to be run by and for tne people. The people are in charge. Government employees work for the people. The people make the rules. Government employees are just supposed to enforce them.

Government employees are supposed to act respectully toward the people. Government employees are NOT supposed to treat us like we are a bunch of peons. And, I didn't pay more money in taxes last year than you probably earned so that a Park Ranger who is functionally one of my employees can abuse my tax dollars and treat me like dirt.


No Andrew, they are all just doing their duty and their job.

If every recreational activity did as they wished in any Designated Wilderness Area, then there surely would not be any wilderness left. Would there now?

Remember, you, me anyone that is a climber, are not the only activity out their utilizing the Public Lands. We need to follow the law equally as any other entity/activity. Period.
Last edited by The Chief on Sun May 16, 2010 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Chief » Sun May 16, 2010 2:55 am

andrewsolow wrote:The Chief's posts on this thread are antithetical to the best interests of the rock climbing community. And, he should be scourged.


WOW.... we are getting nasty now are we.

You aren't the first to state that and I guarantee you won't be the last.

Call me what you want. But it is only fair that the entire rest of the story be told so that everyone can make a fair evaluation of this CTP story.





“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence”
John Quincy Adams
Last edited by The Chief on Sun May 16, 2010 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WML » Sun May 16, 2010 3:41 am

andrewsolow wrote:I think we all agree that we don't want thousands of bolts thoughtlessly installed with power drills. But, I don't believe that has occurred at Christmas Tree Pass. And, I hope that everyone including Park Rangers supports replacement of old, rusty 1/4" bolts which is ongoing at Christmas Tree Pass.

Chief, Please stop hiding your identity under a psedunym and let us know who you are so we can confirm that you are not a government employee or a Park Ranger. And, please stop wasting our time with your drivel.

The Chief's posts on this thread are antithetical to the best interests of the rock climbing community. And, he should be scourged.


Anyone who has been around here for any period of time knows that Chief doesn't just hide behind a name...dude isn't a ranger.
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Postby tmaxwell » Sun May 16, 2010 7:26 am

WML wrote:
andrewsolow wrote:I think we all agree that we don't want thousands of bolts thoughtlessly installed with power drills. But, I don't believe that has occurred at Christmas Tree Pass. And, I hope that everyone including Park Rangers supports replacement of old, rusty 1/4" bolts which is ongoing at Christmas Tree Pass.

Chief, Please stop hiding your identity under a psedunym and let us know who you are so we can confirm that you are not a government employee or a Park Ranger. And, please stop wasting our time with your drivel.

The Chief's posts on this thread are antithetical to the best interests of the rock climbing community. And, he should be scourged.


Anyone who has been around here for any period of time knows that Chief doesn't just hide behind a name...dude isn't a ranger.


Yes Chief is knowledgeable and a great resource and very wise. But he is no ranger. Need to make sure we understand the line. Guides (if Chief really is) are not rangers.
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Postby simonov » Sun May 16, 2010 2:39 pm

andrewsolow wrote:The Chief's posts on this thread are antithetical to the best interests of the rock climbing community. And, he should be scourged.


Holy shit. The Chief's posts in this thread feature a common theme: that climbers should work proactively with land managers before considering adding new routes or cleaning up existing ones.

Who could possibly object to that?

Some of the participants in this thread seem to be tacking dangerously close to the notion that they should be able t do whatever they want in Federally-managed lands. Perhaps such people would be happier participating in off-roader or dirt-biker forums, where they will find many more kindred spirits.

For me, I am happy as hell I don't have to share the trails up San Gorgonio with motorcyclists.

Bottom line: it is illegal to alter the natural landscape in Wilderness areas. That is neither a difficult concept nor, among reasonable people, a controversial one.
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Postby The Chief » Sun May 16, 2010 3:28 pm

Good Morning ya'll!

Here is a CROSS POST that I just posted on ST!



************************************************************
My point in all this, as in any other ACCESS issue, is that we all need to step back, take a deep breath, stop publicly demeaning the LEO/LM whatever, and actually see why they stand as they do. And not via here say. I know for a fact that the brief phone con I had with one of them last week, was just like the one I had with the one with the LEO at the MSP/Grotto area issue. Vague and most likely shooting from the hip. I understand that. BUT, and a big but, I was attempting to see what the NPS has to say in all this BEFORE I go typing any letters and screaming bloody murder and go tell the local CTP LEO or Sup Ranger to kiss my ass etc.

As I see it,

BOTH SIDES have failed to communicate in a sane and constructive manner with one another.

Neither side knows what the other is doing, period. Hell, Not even the climbing community seems to know who is rap bolting w/PD's (Greg, I can post a note that was posted on another site admitting that this behavior), establishing routes where and how, how many total trad/bolted routes there are etc.

Education, Communication and Cooperation from both sides, per the ACCESS and NPS General Agreement...

http://www.accessfund.org/atf/cf/%7B1F5 ... %20MOU.pdf )

which covers all and any area which comes under the auspice of the NPS, regardless if it is a Park, Monu or RA etc. It is only obvious that this isn't the case at this location.

Be completely respectfully to ANY LM when in a situ as this one. Hell, be respectful to ANY LM at any time. They are just doing the job that they took on and doing it to the best of their abilities. Even if the LM is dickhead, Sugar always works better than Napalm when attempting to defuse any ticking bomb.

This whole gig reminds me of the issue that arose a couple years ago At Arches NP. Remember that one!!! The same outcry and screams that the "Tool" was screwing the climbing community and that they were gonna chop all the bolts, shut down climbing etc. Never happened. A dialogue ensued and a management plan was initiated by the Park Sup WITH the cooperation and input of the local Climbing Community. The same thing happened in North Carolina back in '94. Hell, the State Park system there threatened to chop every bolt placed on every piece of rock that stood on any Park Property in particular, Crowder Mtn. Then the Carolina Climbers Coalition was born, dialogue ensued and things were worked out, sanely and respectably.

There are many more events that occurred over the years that got worked out. All had a common theme.... The two sides came together, communicated and established protocols and management tools in order to absolve the issues. To this day these Orgs/Groups work and communicate with the respectable LM's peacefully and all have an excellent rapport with each other that rectifies any potential Access issues.

That is my point here.

This isn't the Wild West any more. We can't just hop in our SUV's, drive out into the desert/forest etc and start putting up routes any where we want with the mentality that we are entitled to do so cuz this is "our" land. If all the different recreational activities did that, every last piece of open, pristine, untouched Wild land area would be trashed and no longer Wild, would it now.

The amazing part about this outcry, I am willing to bet that the vast majority here that are screaming bloody murder on the part of the LMRA NPS folks, are staunch AGW and environmental protection advocates....
Imagehmmmmmmmmmmm!
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Postby Mountainjeff » Sun May 16, 2010 6:36 pm

andrewsolow is starting to look a lot like a troll. Has anybody else looked at his profile? Maybe he should be chopped like all of the bolts he has illegally installed.
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Postby simonov » Sun May 16, 2010 10:04 pm

Some folks having a good time climbing at Echo Cliffs on Saturday, a bit north of the Grotto:

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