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Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby MarkDidier » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:45 am

ZeeJay wrote:Step 2: Send a PM to the elves.

There are lots of people who are unhappy with unresponsive users, but I've never heard of anyone following through with step 2 and not being satisfied.


I have been following this thread for the past week and think there have been a lot of great ideas offered. But I can say that I have had great success with getting updates to pages using the methods ZeeJay mentions...first through Aaron Johnson and now with Bob Sihler. I think Bob has done an outstanding job trying to improve the quality of the sites' content!!!

I don't have many Routes posted so I don't carry much weight but I am against a full Wiki mainly because of the history of site - too many page owners have put too much effort into putting up those pages. But there is a need for improving quality of content. More effort by us members to escalate the issue of bad data would solve most of these problems. Sometimes this takes some persintence, but eventually it does work...whether through contacting the page owners, or contacting the elves that care about the quality of the sites's data. I have always been able to get updates made to pages with my persistence to the page owner or to an elf. Unfortunately this does take some time, but that's the way it is.

As for what appears to be the most popular change, if a section for Additons/Corrections is added to the main page I hope it has an expand button that users could hit to see all the comments. For some pages I could see the additions section getting quite large and becoming an "eye sore" after a while. It would be nice if we could just click on this section to read it.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby big_g » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:43 am

I'm also against full wiki style editing. I'd like to see additions displayed in their own area on the main page though. That makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby yatsek » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:50 am

yatsek wrote:I think there should be "Best Route" along with the other bests in the bottom left-hand corner of the front page. Why don't we replace "Best Area/Range", which is often empty, with "Best Route"? (And add Range/Area to Best Mtn/Rock.)


Josh Lewis wrote:http://www.summitpost.org/object_list.php?object_type=4&within_last_4=7&sort_select_4=score

Good point, no ranges within the week (at least when I checked at 1:42 p.m.). This would be easy to change, all they do is use the advanced search and make links out of them. :wink:


Looks like all the other SP'ers prefer this void corner, say wilderness areas :wink: , to routes, even the best routes. :?
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby hiltrud.liu » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:54 pm

"Icarreau wrote:
Lonely queer fish ? Hmmm ..."

I mean in German EIGENBRÖTLER, perhaps "lone wolf" is the correct translation.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby lcarreau » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:29 pm

hiltrud.liu wrote:"Icarreau wrote:
Lonely queer fish ? Hmmm ..."

I mean in German EIGENBRÖTLER, perhaps "lone wolf" is the correct translation.


My apologies. Language has been a huge barrier for me on Summitpost. If it wasn't for "Google Translate," then I don't know where the hell I'd be.

:D
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby Scott » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:01 pm

As far as the thumbs up/thumbs down thing, I am skeptical that it would make things better. I'm guessing that just about everyone voting will just vote thumbs up on everything. Any thumbs down vote is going to make people mad, even if made constructively. Besides, if a page is just OK, how would you vote it? A thumbs up would mean that the page is fine and the owner of the page might take that as meaning that it doesn't need any work. A thumbs down is going to be seen as negative. It's a sure bet that people are just going to vote thumbs up on everything.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby Bubba Suess » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:36 pm

Scott wrote:As far as the thumbs up/thumbs down thing, I am skeptical that it would make things better. I'm guessing that just about everyone voting will just vote thumbs up on everything. Any thumbs down vote is going to make people mad, even if made constructively. Besides, if a page is just OK, how would you vote it? A thumbs up would mean that the page is fine and the owner of the page might take that as meaning that it doesn't need any work. A thumbs down is going to be seen as negative. It's a sure bet that people are just going to vote thumbs up on everything.


I agree with this. The real solution to the voting issue is adjusting the method so that voting a 9/10 does not lower the score. It has been made too complicated than it needs to be. Shouldn't the score simply be an average of the votes? I am not a mathematician, but that seems simple and fair. If this were the case, then you would get lower over all scores on pages but they would reflect people thoughts on a page more accurately. A page with a score of 80% would be a pretty good score. Right now, that would indicate a sub-par page.

This method would decrease the relevance of power points, but I think that other weighting members opinions, measuring volume of contributions and perhaps page creation and editing privileges, the points don't matter much anyway. I mean, they increase vote weight, but that is marginal compared to the broken voting system.

The real challenge would be how to retroactively grade the pages under the current voting rubric.

Does this seem that simple or am I missing something?
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby Snidely Whiplash » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:49 pm

Scoring is an issue. I don't know how to address it, but I've taken over old pages that were lousy and got lousy votes, and improved them a lot. But they still have an overall lousy score because people don't revise their votes, or people who placed lousy votes don't really visit the site anymore, etc. I'm not exactly sure of the benefit of the present scoring system.

As far as a Wiki system goes, I wonder if that will allow people with big egos to completely change a page. There is a lot about a mountain or route that is subjective, and people get pretty big heads and can be very prideful that their mountaineering knowledge is superior to someone else's.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby Baarb » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:31 pm

I don't get the current scoring system at all, I have one photo rated around 40% even though the three votes on it are 7, 8 and 10.

Secondary to that perhaps if voting was anonymous there would less issues over down voting? People would give the score they thought appropriate without fear of reprisals. If that's been discussed before forgive me.

Further as someone mentioned before there are voting systems based on reactions, such as 'Beautiful', 'Scary!', 'Huh?, 'Seen it before'' etc. Could also work as a tagging type system to help find things, e.g. photo with most 'Scary!' votes.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby gabr1 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:36 pm

I'll ask...
What is it that makes changing the voting system so hard?
I know it's been adressed hundreds of times, but i still haven't understood what the problem is in implementig a different voting system.

About anonimous voting, it wouldn't work, i think, because some people would end up downvoting files from people they don't like...
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby Bob Sihler » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:57 pm

etsnyd wrote:Scoring is an issue. I don't know how to address it, but I've taken over old pages that were lousy and got lousy votes, and improved them a lot. But they still have an overall lousy score because people don't revise their votes, or people who placed lousy votes don't really visit the site anymore, etc.


You can contact an elf in that case to get low votes and negative comments erased in such cases.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby Bob Sihler » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:10 pm

It's my understanding that in the old days, anonymous voting was a problem because of voting wars and avatars. I think it's a good thing that people are accountable for their votes; it's just a bad thing that we unintentionally lower scores with 7, 8, and 9.

Honestly, I don't think you're going to see a change in the voting system anytime soon, if ever. People have been discussing it for years, and it's always been indicated that a change to voting is not in the works. Thus, I think we're stuck with what we have and ought to try to make the best of it.

Personally, I'd be very happy if we simply ended voting on pictures. I'd bet money that it would result in a lot less clutter and off-topic material and encourage better submissions according to the site's intent. People who post pictures for votes and comments could go post on Facebook and get people to like their stuff.

Back to the purpose of the thread-- I'm going to report to Matt that the option most liked and least disliked is the idea of an open corrections section on the main page, which I believe is the one he said would be the easiest to implement. Additionally, I'll share the idea of page owners being able to check a box opening additional sections to editing, on a per-section basis, with the default option being keeping the page closed. Finally, although it's not related to this thread, I'll ask about a save-draft feature, which many on this site have expressed a wish for.

Thank you for your input from all angles, and thank you for keeping it civil here.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby lcarreau » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:59 am

Bob Sihler wrote: People who post pictures for votes and comments could go post on Facebook ...


Bob, is there an option to "Facebook?" A lot of "older" folks like me find "Facebook" to be potentially intrusive and full of avatars and trolls.
Sorry, but I refuse to post there.
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby Arthur Digbee » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:34 am

lcarreau wrote:
Bob Sihler wrote: People who post pictures for votes and comments could go post on Facebook ...

Bob, is there an option to "Facebook?" A lot of "older" folks like me find "Facebook" to be potentially intrusive and full of avatars and trolls.
Sorry, but I refuse to post there.

I think Bob just meant that you *could* use Facebook for photos among friends. I find the community there has *fewer* avatars and trolls than SP but the management of FB is evil. SP elves are not. Well, except for that *one* . . . .

To post photos for the enjoyment of strangers, I'd recommend Flickr.
OCCUPY SUMMITPOST !
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Re: Discussion: Collaboration, Edit/Submit Changes

Postby lcarreau » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:55 am

Arthur Digbee wrote:
lcarreau wrote:
Bob Sihler wrote: People who post pictures for votes and comments could go post on Facebook ...

Bob, is there an option to "Facebook?" A lot of "older" folks like me find "Facebook" to be potentially intrusive and full of avatars and trolls.
Sorry, but I refuse to post there.

I think Bob just meant that you *could* use Facebook for photos among friends. I find the community there has *fewer* avatars and trolls than SP but the management of FB is evil. SP elves are not. Well, except for that *one* . . . .

To post photos for the enjoyment of strangers, I'd recommend Flickr.


Outstanding idea! Think I'll OCCUPY Flickr. :D
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