Welcome to SP!  -
Areas & RangesMountains & RocksRoutesImagesArticlesTrip ReportsGearOtherPeoplePlans & PartnersWhat's NewForum

Do you run?

Tips, tricks, workouts, injury advice.
 

Re: Do you run?

Postby JHH60 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:45 am

Woodie Hopper wrote:Also, note that running on flat ground doesn't train you for running (or hiking) on hills. If you throw in some hilly terrain you'll be much better prepared for hiking in the mountains, and you'll also crush people who haven't trained on hills when running a hilly road race.


Careful generalizing: I routinely run on relatively flat courses with smaller hills, although I run faster and longer than most when I train. Depending on your intensity of training, training on relatively flat terrain can certainly help with hiking in the mountains or running hilly road races. With that being said you are at a disadvantage compared to others that train at altitude or run hills.

It is important to bear in mind that it may be risky jumping into hill training before you establish a comfortable distance base, because if you don't, you may be setting yourself up for a preventable injury. Please keep this in mind if you are inexperienced and contemplating running on hills.

Woodie[/quote]

You are right - of course any good aerobic training, including running on flat ground, is better than not training for climbing. I should have said that running hills (in my experience) is better training for mountain climbing than running on flat ground. And I do agree (as would most running coaches) that you should have a good running base before starting hills, speed work, etc. - something like 25 miles a week minimum sounds about right.
User Avatar
JHH60

 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:59 pm
Location: Belmont, California, United States
Thanked: 94 times in 78 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby SeanReedy » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:38 am

^^^I don't know that I have ever run more than 20 miles in a week, but I can safely do speedwork and/or run hills on trails whenever I feel like it (1-4 times a week). If I wanted to be, I could quickly be ready for a wide range of race distances (no desire). A lot depends on a person's goal(s), other training, and previous experiences. Cycling, hiking, weights, and plyometric exercises work well for me as cross training.

I'll build on some of the concepts in this thread with some additional tips for beginning/intermediate runners: If you aren't in an important race, walk down the steep hills. Learn about proper form and cadence. Pay attention to technique/form and how you feel during and after a run. If you feel an injury, stop running that day and monitor it/treat it.. If your form is falling apart and you begin to stomp, slouch, or feel signs of overused hips, knees, shins, or ankles, take walking breaks or call it a day. If running is new to you or you are out of shape, don't expect to be ready to go fast or far until you have spent time adapting to running and developing good form. There are lots of good articles on these subjects on the internet (Active.com, Runner's World etc.), as well as good training plans for various distances (5K, 10K, half-marathon). Learn about technique drills and strength/power exercises that can increase agility, improve technique, and reduce risk of injury (plyometrics are an example). Learn stretches to do after your runs, especially focusing on problem areas. Invest in foam rollers or tennis balls to massage problem areas (or pay for sports massages). Avoid running on hard surfaces, especially concrete. Adapting to blacktop and even some tracks may take time. Trails, grass, and dirt are great, but be careful of uneven spots that could lead to ankle sprains and other injuries. Consider cross-training, such as cycling, stair climbing, weight training, plyometrics, strenuous hiking/climbing, swimming, yoga, skiing, etc. to stay fit & increase strength without overdoing the running. Carefully trying new things and mixing up stale routines will generally increase overall strength and fitness (especially if you have stopped improving).

Don't expect to improve much at any of the above activities if you don't exercise at least 20-60 minutes 3-6 days a week, with intensity and strength training included some days. Interval training builds speed and strength. A longer session of exercise about once a week helps endurance, but a long hike counts if fitness for hiking is your goal. With persistence, you can become very fit for intense hiking at the middle ranges of the spectrum (of time spent) and can even become a decent middle distance runner (1-10 miles). Depending on training intensity, don't forget to take it really easy for about a week every 6-8 weeks or so, as well as after unusually long and intense exercise/races..

Some statements in the thread have been geared more to competitive half-marathon, marathon and ultra distance running, which is only worth carefully undertaking if you really want to do it. For most people, running beyond about 15 miles (or even beyond 3-6 intense miles) has very little added benefit and increases the odds of injury due to bad form/technique and/or overuse. Diminishing returns and increased injury risk come into play at some point in your mileage and intensity level for a day, week, or training cycle. That applies to all types of exercise. If you love ultra endurance exercise, I'm sure you figure out ways to make it work and some are genetically fortunate in that realm.
User Avatar
SeanReedy

 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:37 pm
Location: Garlic, California, United States
Thanked: 389 times in 309 posts

The following user would like to thank SeanReedy for this post
mconnell, Sierra Ledge Rat

Re: Do you run?

Postby Sierra Ledge Rat » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:34 pm

SeanReedy wrote:...If you aren't in an important race, walk down the steep hills...


Why didn't you tell me that sooner? Like 20 years ago?

If had know that, I might still be running today.

Instead, I spent the night trying to find a position to get my knee from aching and keeping me awake.
User Avatar
Sierra Ledge Rat

 
Posts: 1117
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Appalachia, United States
Thanked: 242 times in 158 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby Fletch » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:38 pm

I run 3-4 miles about 2-3x per week. I also lift weights 1x per week and crossfit 1-2x per week. When I can get out, I'm usually in the hills 2-3x per month. In the summer, I may bike to work if I'm not working late. And I'm dying to find a good pickup basketball game here in Denver...

If I'm training for a climb, I'll usually stairmaster with a pack and boots on 1x per week or get some vertical after work (local trail run/hike). And if I'm training for a run, I'll increase the mileage but not the frequency. I usually try to run a half marathon about every 6 months to keep me pointed in a specific direction. After running a few marathons (for 5 hours no less), I feel like those didn't do much for me... The marginal utility sort of peaked around 15 miles (as others have said).

Anyway, my point is that running is important, and we should all do some of it. How long, how far, how many times per week is up to the individual. But I do find that it's exponentially more fun and benefitial (especially for hiking/climbing) when combined with a variety of other strength, power, and cardio activities.

And no one mentioned diet? :D
User Avatar
Fletch

 
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:46 pm
Location: Orange County
Thanked: 93 times in 52 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby LesterLong » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:53 pm

I'd love to thank everyone for chiming in here. I really do appreciate all the comments. I've had a hate/hate relationship with running since I ran my first marathon in 1995.

One thing I've learned in this thread is to walk more hills. I have a 40 pound weight vest which I'll start with soon. :)
User Avatar
LesterLong

 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:43 pm
Location: New York, New York, United States
Thanked: 24 times in 19 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby John Duffield » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:44 pm

I've got the NYC Half on Sunday. A loop completely around Central Park, then run down 6th Ave through Times Square, over to the West Side and completely around lower Manhattan and finish in South Street Seaport.

I needed to run 4 races last year to get my spot. Hard to get into. Kinda surprising given it's a longish race for the off season. But there really is no off season now. So many races, so little time. I will do about 14 - 15 races this year.

I always took the worst damage in mountaineering going down. So when I started running, I knew that.

In a crummy little race last year, I see a guy in front of me with an MDot Tat. The chance to smoke an Ironman made me pick up my pace. I'd catch up to him on the uphills, but he'd take off on the downs. Dunno how that worked out for him.
User Avatar
John Duffield

 
Posts: 2446
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:48 pm
Location: New York City, , China
Thanked: 878 times in 480 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby Fletch » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:11 pm

John Duffield wrote:MDot Tat.

Really? That's the douche-iest thing I've ever heard of...

You should see some of the bad tattoos here in Denver. It's not the workmanship, it's the subject matter. I saw a bald eagle across some girls cleavage, and Av's logo on some (very beautiful) girls leg (probably all she has to remember him by, poor thing), and some mural of Mt Bierstadt across a dude's back... WTF people?

I always laughed when people moved to Denver (get a Subaru, a dog, and a bad tattoo), but aparently it happens other places too...

uggghhh... what ever happened to people's self confidence?
User Avatar
Fletch

 
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:46 pm
Location: Orange County
Thanked: 93 times in 52 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby dskoon » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:26 pm

^^^^ Yeah, I knew it too, John, et al, about not running downhill, esp on trails.
Yet, that's just what I did last weekend, and am now paying the price for my foolishness. . .
Knees were in good shape prior; now, my right knee is a little funky, and I'm trying to get it back.
Didn't feel anything at the time, but, afterward, felt a tightening as I was stretching right above the kneecap.
Walked with a slight limp for a couple of days, and It seems that my knee "pops" a little bit now,
and didn't prior to this. .
No real pain, just kinda funky. .
Biking seems to help, but, disappointed in this, and hope its only temporary.

Any thoughts on what might've happened??
User Avatar
dskoon

 
Posts: 3116
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:06 am
Location: portland, Oregon
Thanked: 136 times in 104 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby LesterLong » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:46 pm

John Duffield wrote:I see a guy in front of me with an MDot Tat.


Forgive me.......a quick google search yields Michigan Department of Transportation, which I'm guessing wouldn't be appropriate in NYC.

What is an MDot?
User Avatar
LesterLong

 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:43 pm
Location: New York, New York, United States
Thanked: 24 times in 19 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby Fletch » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:41 pm

LesterLong wrote:What is an MDot?

Image
User Avatar
Fletch

 
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:46 pm
Location: Orange County
Thanked: 93 times in 52 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby John Duffield » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:43 pm

dskoon wrote:^^^^ Yeah, I knew it too, John, et al, about not running downhill, esp on trails.
Yet, that's just what I did last weekend, and am now paying the price for my foolishness. . .
Knees were in good shape prior; now, my right knee is a little funky, and I'm trying to get it back.
Didn't feel anything at the time, but, afterward, felt a tightening as I was stretching right above the kneecap.
Walked with a slight limp for a couple of days, and It seems that my knee "pops" a little bit now,
and didn't prior to this. .
No real pain, just kinda funky. .
Biking seems to help, but, disappointed in this, and hope its only temporary.

Any thoughts on what might've happened??


Dunno. But it should be temporary. The stuff I've read about the permanent stuff starts with dramz. Doesn't usually creep up on you.

I spent about 4 1/2 years doing intensive Yoga to prepare. I needed that to get my body balanced out. I was too lopsided. I also attended a load of seminars put on by the Hospital for Special Surgery to understand the mechanics.

One thing I have noticed. The repetitive pounding on the knees is hard to get used to. I don't carry any extra weight. I can't imagine running if I did. Each extra pound would be hitting the knees every step. There is a percentage of the running community that does this to lose weight . Props to them but my guess is, they'd be better off in the long run getting the weight off first. In my age group, nearly everyone tells me they "can't" run.

One thing about hill training is, it trains you in shifting your center of balance. I don't have any running photos but here's a ski photo from last month going down a steep slope. Note how I have my weight shifted back.

Imagen.jpg
User Avatar
John Duffield

 
Posts: 2446
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:48 pm
Location: New York City, , China
Thanked: 878 times in 480 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby dskoon » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:06 pm

John Duffield wrote:
dskoon wrote:^^^^ Yeah, I knew it too, John, et al, about not running downhill, esp on trails.
Yet, that's just what I did last weekend, and am now paying the price for my foolishness. . .
Knees were in good shape prior; now, my right knee is a little funky, and I'm trying to get it back.
Didn't feel anything at the time, but, afterward, felt a tightening as I was stretching right above the kneecap.
Walked with a slight limp for a couple of days, and It seems that my knee "pops" a little bit now,
and didn't prior to this. .
No real pain, just kinda funky. .
Biking seems to help, but, disappointed in this, and hope its only temporary.

Any thoughts on what might've happened??


Dunno. But it should be temporary. The stuff I've read about the permanent stuff starts with dramz. Doesn't usually creep up on you.


Yeah, I hear you, but, I don't think this crept up on me; in other words, though I didn't feel anything at the time, nor beforehand, I definitely felt it afterward, ie, after getting out of the car and limping into the store. . Didn't feel "dramz"
on the run, but, certainly felt it afterward.
User Avatar
dskoon

 
Posts: 3116
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:06 am
Location: portland, Oregon
Thanked: 136 times in 104 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby John Duffield » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:40 pm

Well, I would get it checked. One of my best moves was heading to the doc 2 years ago before I lost fitness. Saved my season. The Podiatrist. Lots of problems get telegraphed up through the feet.
User Avatar
John Duffield

 
Posts: 2446
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:48 pm
Location: New York City, , China
Thanked: 878 times in 480 posts

The following user would like to thank John Duffield for this post
dskoon

Re: Do you run?

Postby dskoon » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:33 pm

John Duffield wrote:Well, I would get it checked. One of my best moves was heading to the doc 2 years ago before I lost fitness. Saved my season. The Podiatrist. Lots of problems get telegraphed up through the feet.


Taking it a little slowly right now, still biking but foresaking running at present.
It is feeling a bit better, day by day. . . Hopefully just strained it somehow.
But, I might just take your advice on the visit to the Podiatrist.
Thanks!
User Avatar
dskoon

 
Posts: 3116
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:06 am
Location: portland, Oregon
Thanked: 136 times in 104 posts

Re: Do you run?

Postby John Duffield » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:20 am

Here's an article that might help. Coinciding exhalation, with the same footstrike, increases risk of injury.

http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tip ... -technique

the greatest impact stress of running occurs when one's footstrike coincides with the beginning of an exhalation. This means that if you begin to exhale every time your left foot hits the ground, the left side of your body will continually suffer the greatest running stress.

An analogy would be if you loaded a backpack down with books, notebooks, and a laptop and then slung it over your right shoulder. With all this weight on one side of your body, you'd be forced to compensate physically, placing more stress on one side of your back and hip. But if you were to slip that same heavy backpack over both shoulders, the load would be distributed evenly. You'd put your body in a position to better manage that stress, and your back would stay healthy.
User Avatar
John Duffield

 
Posts: 2446
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:48 pm
Location: New York City, , China
Thanked: 878 times in 480 posts

The following user would like to thank John Duffield for this post
loaderg1

PreviousNext

Return to Technique and Training

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

© 2006-2013 SummitPost.org. All Rights Reserved.