ExcitableBoy wrote:

kkline91 wrote:temps low enough to recreate a day at camp when it was lets say -20 or as low as Shasta/Rainier can get (I think it can get in extreme cases to -30 in May right?)

I suppose anything is possible but in May the nighttime low is probably closer to +20 at 10,000 ft in May. Your jacket should be fine, I use a similar one on Rainier spring through fall.

kkline91 wrote:Basic Snowbibs that you would get from Dicks's sporting goods for $30 or $40. (also covers my chest so I included that) Side subject I think I need legit bibs.

I would rethink the bibs. Look into a midweight softshell pant. Here is a link to an article I wrote about Mt Rainier http://www.summitpost.org/so-you-want-to-climb-mt-rainier/507227. It has a suggested clothing and gear list. You may find it helpful.

Im taking your advice and im gonna return the rei taku pants. While they are nice they are impossible to put on or take off with regular boots on. Add crampons and im hosed. Im gonna ditch the cheapy bibs and get the mountain hardwear windstopper tech pants which are fuul zip and then thinking the alpine lakes rei full zip shell pants. They are only 2 layer but im starting to realize that hard shells are used much less than I thought. So lower body will be light baselayer then convertible pants then mh tech pants then the rei alpine lakes hardshell pants if I have heavier precip. On top ill have light baselayer, then heavy baselayer over that if neede (rarely for me) then my UA pullover, then I can stack my NF Apex coat over that and my NF optimus or my arteryx or even both as outer layer. I kinda feel like I have one two many layers with the apex, but last week I ran 10.5 miles in 20 degree temps and just took off the apex when I got too warm and I was great. Minimal sweat and very warm. When I first got my arteryx. Shell I thought I could wear that over a base and be good, but damn did I sweat a lot with the full pack and sled. Soft shells ftw. Let me know if any of my thoughts above are way off for shasta.

Dane1 wrote:"A 100g/m^2 jacket like that for stops"

Agreed and I wouldn't want more for anything that you have your list. EB XV is a great jacket but way, way over kill for anything you have listed.

I use the 100g jackets (and there are some good ones available made of Primaloft 1) for the majority of my belay duties these days but never wear it over just an R1.

R1 is the 1st layer...either some lwt insulation or a wind shell over that...makes layer 2....next is either a 100g weight belay jacket down to -30 or so as layer 3. Lower than that I would prefer something like a XV. But you are talking Alaska spring up high or Canadian winter out over night for temps lower than -30.

Dane, you know 100X more about this stuff than I ever will, as I am a once a year guided climber, but I am somewhat stunned by this advice. The only time I was on Rainier summit in July, it was below 0F, and the wind was howling. I feel sure I would have frozen my ass off in a 100g Primaloft parka (Pata Micro Puff). Are you saying a Micro Puff is OK for -30C (-22F) , or am I misinterpreting? This seems incredible. My next trip is to Baker in July, and a light parka would be nice, but what if you get caught in a storm, someone is injured, etc.? I'm all for saving weight, but I want to be safe.

Jim

jthomas wrote:

Dane1 wrote:"A 100g/m^2 jacket like that for stops"

Agreed and I wouldn't want more for anything that you have your list. EB XV is a great jacket but way, way over kill for anything you have listed.

I use the 100g jackets (and there are some good ones available made of Primaloft 1) for the majority of my belay duties these days but never wear it over just an R1.

R1 is the 1st layer...either some lwt insulation or a wind shell over that...makes layer 2....next is either a 100g weight belay jacket down to -30 or so as layer 3. Lower than that I would prefer something like a XV. But you are talking Alaska spring up high or Canadian winter out over night for temps lower than -30.

Dane, you know 100X more about this stuff than I ever will, as I am a once a year guided climber, but I am somewhat stunned by this advice. The only time I was on Rainier summit in July, it was below 0F, and the wind was howling. I feel sure I would have frozen my ass off in a 100g Primaloft parka (Pata Micro Puff). Are you saying a Micro Puff is OK for -30C (-22F) , or am I misinterpreting? This seems incredible. My next trip is to Baker in July, and a light parka would be nice, but what if you get caught in a storm, someone is injured, etc.? I'm all for saving weight, but I want to be safe.

Jim

Agreed. I've read Dane's blog, etc. before, and certainly repect him as well as others who've commented on this lighter/heavier puffly topic. I'm not a hardman like these guys(certainly not as a climber-I'm only a newb!), but, I think I'd freeze my ass off in the conditions Jthomas refers to above, as well as what some others mentioned, if I only had what I consider a light(20oz.or so), puffy to keep me warm. I take that kind of coat hiking around here, use as a layer whilst skiing, etc. But, shit, potentially low temps on Rainier, Denali, or any of the other big ones? With just a Compressor/Micro puff or equivalent hoody? Yikes! Someone I know said they took a Compressor up Denali, and that's mostly what they wore. . . Maybe it was ideal conditions, I dunno, but, I tend to get colder easier as I get older, and for me, I'd want something heavier and warmer. Subjective, yes, but still. . .

dskoon wrote:

jthomas wrote:

Dane1 wrote:"A 100g/m^2 jacket like that for stops"

Agreed and I wouldn't want more for anything that you have your list. EB XV is a great jacket but way, way over kill for anything you have listed.

I use the 100g jackets (and there are some good ones available made of Primaloft 1) for the majority of my belay duties these days but never wear it over just an R1.

R1 is the 1st layer...either some lwt insulation or a wind shell over that...makes layer 2....next is either a 100g weight belay jacket down to -30 or so as layer 3. Lower than that I would prefer something like a XV. But you are talking Alaska spring up high or Canadian winter out over night for temps lower than -30.

Dane, you know 100X more about this stuff than I ever will, as I am a once a year guided climber, but I am somewhat stunned by this advice. The only time I was on Rainier summit in July, it was below 0F, and the wind was howling. I feel sure I would have frozen my ass off in a 100g Primaloft parka (Pata Micro Puff). Are you saying a Micro Puff is OK for -30C (-22F) , or am I misinterpreting? This seems incredible. My next trip is to Baker in July, and a light parka would be nice, but what if you get caught in a storm, someone is injured, etc.? I'm all for saving weight, but I want to be safe.

Jim

Agreed. I've read Dane's blog, etc. before, and certainly repect him as well as others who've commented on this lighter/heavier puffly topic. I'm not a hardman like these guys(certainly not as a climber-I'm only a newb!), but, I think I'd freeze my ass off in the conditions Jthomas refers to above, as well as what some others mentioned, if I only had what I consider a light(20oz.or so), puffy to keep me warm. I take that kind of coat hiking around here, use as a layer whilst skiing, etc. But, shit, potentially low temps on Rainier, Denali, or any of the other big ones? With just a Compressor/Micro puff or equivalent hoody? Yikes! Someone I know said they took a Compressor up Denali, and that's mostly what they wore. . . Maybe it was ideal conditions, I dunno, but, I tend to get colder easier as I get older, and for me, I'd want something heavier and warmer. Subjective, yes, but still. . .

I think age is a HUGE factor. I am dramatically more sensitive to cold than in my younger years. I used to run in shorts and a T shirt regardless of temperature. No longer.

jthomas wrote:

Dane1 wrote:"A 100g/m^2 jacket like that for stops"

Agreed and I wouldn't want more for anything that you have your list. EB XV is a great jacket but way, way over kill for anything you have listed.

I use the 100g jackets (and there are some good ones available made of Primaloft 1) for the majority of my belay duties these days but never wear it over just an R1.

R1 is the 1st layer...either some lwt insulation or a wind shell over that...makes layer 2....next is either a 100g weight belay jacket down to -30 or so as layer 3. Lower than that I would prefer something like a XV. But you are talking Alaska spring up high or Canadian winter out over night for temps lower than -30.

Dane, you know 100X more about this stuff than I ever will, as I am a once a year guided climber, but I am somewhat stunned by this advice. The only time I was on Rainier summit in July, it was below 0F, and the wind was howling. I feel sure I would have frozen my ass off in a 100g Primaloft parka (Pata Micro Puff). Are you saying a Micro Puff is OK for -30C (-22F) , or am I misinterpreting? This seems incredible. My next trip is to Baker in July, and a light parka would be nice, but what if you get caught in a storm, someone is injured, etc.? I'm all for saving weight, but I want to be safe.

Jim

I think Dane is spot on. I wear a Patagonia Micropuff on Rainier April through November. You must have had unusually cold conditions on Rainier. How do you know it was below zero? July is our hottest month - a Micropuff will be more than enough jacket for Mt. Baker.

OP
Just got back from ouray with the optimus and the subzero. If you want "good enough", the optimus will do. If you want to be comfortable and warm, go for the subzero.

Fair question I'll try to answer.
Not every system will work for everyone. None of this is easy. And it takes some work and serious effort to get a system to work for you. But I suspect the systems I am suggesting will work for most everyone once you understand it is a system.

First it is't a age thing. I'm likely as old or older than anyone here.

It isn't a tough guy thing. I hate, hate, really seriously hate being cold. Ask my wife. I run the truck heater max all winter long and cook everyone out. But regularly climb in -20 to -30 temps on hard water fall ice and alpine all winter, every winter. If i was cold I wouldn't do it. I have never had the scream'in barfies in all my winter climbing.

What it really is, is a DRY THING. To stay warm you need to stay dry. I have changed my layering system several times in my climbing career and continue to change and to refine it. New clothing designs allow for that. Most everyone over dresses going out doors...all the time... and don't layer with something that helps them stay dry. You need to "climb cold" to climb dry...more on that later in a link. But you are really never "cold" or uncomfortable.
But it is never simple....



Not the best example but I'll try to walk you through my thought process. This picture is the summit of Rainier late June in good conditions, cold clear and windy. All 5 of my clients were marathon runners here. I never have been. My layers are mid weight long johns top and botton and a light wind shell upper and lower, a head band ...and warm boots. That is it. We didn't know what a belay parka was then. If I had I'd have one in the pack. Instead I had a bigger parka...like many of you want to use... in case we did have a problem. Nothing I would ever likely use unless someone was injured or sick and immobile. A 100g "belay jacket" I could use when stopped or in worse conditons and still stay dry or put on someone if I could keep them moving. Over heating when you are fit or sick is never pleasant nor is it healthy. Everyone there wore what they have on the entire summit day. They were now wet and cold on the summit. I wasn't wet or cold. Head band helps regulate the heat and keep me dry better than a hat, as does the light weight and very breathable shell gear and under layer.

It isn't just clients. I was climbing in SLC with two of America's best alpinist last week. Both much younger than myself. I used a very breathable upper system (Arcteryx Atom LT and the awesomwe NWAlpine lWT hoody). They both used soft shell hoodies and some kind of mid weight under it. While climbing, we were all fine until the wind came up. When it did they got chilled. I had to protect the side vents on the Atom some, but little worry easy enough to do and I was still warm. When we stopped to belay they both shivered...as in really shivered... as they tried to dry off internally. Soft shells don't breath good enough to keep you dry..at least nothing does yet (Neoshell may solve that problem though) I was never even uncomfortable and I was always dry. My clothing system allowed me to stay dry even when working hard. And we all climbed at the same pace.

more here:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11 ... aying.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11 ... ayers.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/12 ... -cold.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02 ... -walk.html

Sorry about the ugly mug but the picture was taken @ -30C and I was good....not happy mind you, belaying and immobile, but warm enough. Merino wool skull cap, R1 hoody next to my skin, Atom lT as the mid layer and a MH Compressor 100g of Primaloft 1 as the over layer. When I started climbing I simply took off the outer layer. I stayed dry climbing (WI6 on this one) and didn't have to add the belay parka on the next belay as I was still dry so I stayed warm. Staying warm means you have to think about what you are wearing and why all the time. It is a thinking man's game. And generally, if you think about it, you'll need a lot less than you first think. And again, "it is never simple".



I've been on Rainier and Denali a bunch and a 100g hoody will work fine on either but they are part of a system...not stand alone pieces. A system! On a West Butt trip I prefer a heavier jacket...not while climbing mind you but around camp and as a "over bag" for my sleeping system. But I have used much less on quick trips on the same route. Even then I've never climbed on Denali or anywhere in the Alaska range when a Atom Lt and a Compressor hoody wouldn't more than do the job as a combo...and above 17K on Denali is can get pretty freakin cold! I simply would never suggest anyone bring more than a 100g hoody on Rainier winter or summer. As a guide on either back in the day my only goal was to get my clients up (summit) and down the mountain safely while helping them have the most comfortable trip possible. Same reason for the blog or writing here.

Forgot this. People seem to mention Baker, Rainier and Shasta in the same breath as Denali. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In order of difficulty and cold temps..it should be Shasta, Baker, Rainier and Denali. And Rainier and Denali are big steps above the first two and even bigger steps between them. I have worn cross trainiers to 22K in South America and 10K on Rainier. And froze my ass off at 11K on Denali in full on winter kit. Don't throw these mtns all together in one bunch. You'll want and likely need different systems for each even though there is some obvious over lap.

Baker is 10.7K and a bit north. Rainier is 14.4K. 3500" feet is a HUGE difference. Shasta is far enough south that the 14K isn't anywhere close to being as serious as Rainier for weather or temps. Denali? Of a dozen or so friends who have done Everest, the ones who have done both tell me they were always colder on Denali. Dougal Haston and Doug Scott said the same after doing Everest themselves the year before. Denali is a Polar region peak and really a 25K foot peak by the relative air pressure. Nothing as cold or as "high" except in the Himalaya or the South Pole.

Dane1 wrote:Fair question I'll try to answer.
Not every system will work for everyone. None of this is easy. And it takes some work and serious effort to get a system to work for you. But I suspect the systems I am suggesting will work for most everyone once you understand it is a system.

First it is't a age thing. I'm likely as old or older than anyone here.

It isn't a tough guy thing. I hate, hate, really seriously hate being cold. Ask my wife. I run the truck heater max all winter long and cook everyone out. But regularly climb in -20 to -30 temps on hard water fall ice and alpine all winter, every winter. If i was cold I wouldn't do it. I have never had the scream'in barfies in all my winter climbing.

What it really is, is a DRY THING. To stay warm you need to stay dry. I have changed my layering system several times in my climbing career and continue to change and to refine it. New clothing designs allow for that. Most everyone over dresses going out doors...all the time... and don't layer with something that helps them stay dry. You need to "climb cold" to climb dry...more on that later in a link. But you are really never "cold" or uncomfortable.
But it is never simple....



Not the best example but I'll try to walk you through my thought process. This picture is the summit of Rainier late June in good conditions, cold clear and windy. All 5 of my clients were marathon runners here. I never have been. My layers are mid weight long johns top and botton and a light wind shell upper and lower, a head band ...and warm boots. That is it. We didn't know what a belay parka was then. If I had I'd have one in the pack. Instead I had a bigger parka...like many of you want to use... in case we did have a problem. Nothing I would ever likely use unless someone was injured or sick and immobile. A 100g "belay jacket" I could use when stopped or in worse conditons and still stay dry or put on someone if I could keep them moving. Over heating when you are fit or sick is never pleasant nor is it healthy. Everyone there wore what they have on the entire summit day. They were now wet and cold on the summit. I wasn't wet or cold. Head band helps regulate the heat and keep me dry better than a hat, as does the light weight and very breathable shell gear and under layer.

It isn't just clients. I was climbing in SLC with two of America's best alpinist last week. Both much younger than myself. I used a very breathable upper system (Arcteryx Atom LT and the awesomwe NWAlpine lWT hoody). They both used soft shell hoodies and some kind of mid weight under it. While climbing, we were all fine until the wind came up. When it did they got chilled. I had to protect the side vents on the Atom some, but little worry easy enough to do and I was still warm. When we stopped to belay they both shivered...as in really shivered... as they tried to dry off internally. Soft shells don't breath good enough to keep you dry..at least nothing does yet (Neoshell may solve that problem though) I was never even uncomfortable and I was always dry. My clothing system allowed me to stay dry even when working hard. And we all climbed at the same pace.

more here:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11 ... aying.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11 ... ayers.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/12 ... -cold.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02 ... -walk.html

Sorry about the ugly mug but the picture was taken @ -30C and I was good....not happy mind you, belaying and immobile, but warm enough. Merino wool skull cap, R1 hoody next to my skin, Atom lT as the mid layer and a MH Compressor 100g of Primaloft 1 as the over layer. When I started climbing I simply took off the outer layer. I stayed dry climbing (WI6 on this one) and didn't have to add the belay parka on the next belay as I was still dry so I stayed warm. Staying warm means you have to think about what you are wearing and why all the time. It is a thinking man's game. And generally, if you think about it, you'll need a lot less than you first think. And again, "it is never simple".



I've been on Rainier and Denali a bunch and a 100g hoody will work fine on either but they are part of a system...not stand alone pieces. A system! On a West Butt trip I prefer a heavier jacket...not while climbing mind you but around camp and as a "over bag" for my sleeping system. But I have used much less on quick trips on the same route. Even then I've never climbed on Denali or anywhere in the Alaska range when a Atom Lt and a Compressor hoody wouldn't more than do the job as a combo...and above 17K on Denali is can get pretty freakin cold! I simply would never suggest anyone bring more than a 100g hoody on Rainier winter or summer. As a guide on either back in the day my only goal was to get my clients up (summit) and down the mountain safely while helping them have the most comfortable trip possible. Same reason for the blog or writing here.

Forgot this. People seem to mention Baker, Rainier and Shasta in the same breath as Denali. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In order of difficulty and cold temps..it should be Shasta, Baker, Rainier and Denali. And Rainier and Denali are big steps above the first two and even bigger steps between them. I have worn cross trainiers to 22K in South America and 10K on Rainier. And froze my ass off at 11K on Denali. Don't throw these mtns all together in one bunch. You'll want and likely need different systems for each even though there is some obvious over lap.

Baker is 10.7K and a bit north. Rainier is 14.4K. 3500" feet is a HUGE difference. Shasta is far enough south that the 14K isn't anywhere close to being as serious as Rainier for weather or temps.

Dane, what an incredibly thoughtful and useful post! Thanks for taking the time to do this. You addressed most of my questions with facts and hard experience, as opposed to just spouting opinions like many on here. Thanks again.

+1 Really cool to see Mr. Cold Thistle here! Dane has an amazing blog.

Thanks everyone. I picked up a pair of arteryx gamma ar pants for uninsulated breathable bottoms and the mountain hardwear super power hoody for top layer. Those will be my action layers over my baselayer and then can stack on top of those if needed. I can hike in the single digits with just heatgear ua baselayers and convertable pants and a fleece pullover. I really liked the super power goody because it can break wind but breathes awesome and isn't heavily insulated. Ill keep adjusting and I keep track of conditions and take notes to go back to when I hit those similar conditions again.

Dane, you have mentioned that you use the Atom LT. I looked at one in the store and really liked it, but two things stopped me.

1. What is with the stretch side panels? I haven't seen this on any other parka. Seems like this would cost warmth with little upside.
2. No hood adjustment at all. WTF? Seems like this would be a huge PITA. Doesn't this make the hood next to useless?

Thanks again for all your comments.

Jim

jthomas wrote:Dane, you have mentioned that you use the Atom LT. I looked at one in the store and really liked it, but two things stopped me.

1. What is with the stretch side panels? I haven't seen this on any other parka. Seems like this would cost warmth with little upside.

Thanks again for all your comments.

Jim

Actually those side panels should make the jacket breathe much better making it usable when active and as a midlayer under another jacket when on belay or camp.

you have mentioned that you use the Atom LT.

1. What is with the stretch side panels? I haven't seen this on any other parka. Seems like this would cost warmth with little upside.
2. No hood adjustment at all. WTF? Seems like this would be a huge PITA. Doesn't this make the hood next to useless?

Yes the Atom LT is one of my main stay pieces and best investments I've made in awhile for my own alpine and ice climbing. I have and use two of them constantly. The vents do allow you to use a super light weight (as in .oz) jacket that is way warmer for the weight than anything else I can think of because it breathes so well. Wild Things and Mtn Hardware have now copied the technology in their own versions. Hood is no issue what so ever and easily fits over a helmet. It is extremely user friendly in fact. It is a green Atom Lt in the previous post's picture with the black belay jacket over it.

The Atom lt can be a mid layer for warmth. But I use it generally as a outer shell garment for cold weather climbing when I am very active. It is not a belay jacket...more a belay sweater and not that warm in the grand scheme of things if you are going to use it like that. Which I do if the temps permit it.

Cold day in the Ice fields late Nov. Good wind blowing while we discuss the avi conditions.



The Joke Slinger in his Atom LT Jan 5 2011 Canadian Rockies in a hard freeze.



More here:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/02 ... od-is.html