Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

Minimally moderated forum for climbing related hearsay, misinformation, and lies.
User Avatar
mrchad9

 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:01 am
Thanked: 1338 times in 911 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by mrchad9 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:34 pm

Consensus seems to be:

free rescue = good

using a spot device to plan for and summon the free rescue = bad

User Avatar
simonov

 
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:07 pm
Thanked: 786 times in 451 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by simonov » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:30 pm

stinkysox77 wrote:
Tonka wrote:
stinkysox77 wrote:The welfare state is alive and well! Your mistakes gladly covered by California tax payers.


What is this country coming to? There are times when we help people without questioning the cost.

From a state that's almost 500 billion in debt and a country that's 20 trillion in debt, we might want to question that cost.

There is no net cost. The chopper crews have to spend a minimum amount of time in the air every month anyway. If they weren't out rescuing people, they would be flying around for training.

Now, I suppose you could argue for dispensing with rescue services completely. I guess that would save money. Maybe 1/100th of the monthly cost of operating a single aircraft carrier.
Nunc est bibendum.

User Avatar
stinkysox77

 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 7:22 pm
Thanked: 158 times in 110 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by stinkysox77 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:30 pm

I guess I'm in the vast minority with the belief that if you get hurt or lost while venturing into the backcountry you should be responsible for the cost required to save you. Personal responsibility and accountability is quickly disappearing in our modern society, and I think that's a problem.

User Avatar
simonov

 
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:07 pm
Thanked: 786 times in 451 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by simonov » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:46 pm

I was trying to explain there is no net cost, but whatever . . .
Nunc est bibendum.

User Avatar
stinkysox77

 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 7:22 pm
Thanked: 158 times in 110 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by stinkysox77 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:05 pm

Considering I've read about 5 helicopter rescues or searches in the Sierras in the last week, I don't think its just replacing training time...

User Avatar
Romain

 
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:11 pm
Thanked: 44 times in 27 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by Romain » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm

I was trying to explain there is no net cost, but whatever . . .


Even if there were no marginal cost from a single rescue (which is doubtful), that would not imply that "customers" should not be charged for the service. After all some of us pay for the Windows OS even though the marginal cost of making it is zero.

There is a basic incentive issue which is that people will take on too much risk if they do not pay any portion of the social cost of their actions, resulting in too many accidents and too many rescues. Because of this externality, inherent in free rescues, a wise policymaker would charge a fee for rescues even if a marginal rescue costs nothing. That would help ensure the number of accidents (and rescues) is at the efficient level.

The following user would like to thank Romain for this post
stinkysox77

User Avatar
DukeJH

 
Posts: 694
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:12 am
Thanked: 50 times in 41 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by DukeJH » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:36 pm

Interesting reading in a position paper from the Mountain Rescue Association: http://mra.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/MRAChargePosition.pdf

"The latest data provided by the National Park Services shows that 82 percent of rescues in parks are for hikers boaters and swimmers. Mountain climbers represented just 4 percent of their rescue activities."

"The United States Coast Guard (USCG) spends $680 million a year for SAR, 13% of their budget. They perform 82 search and rescue missions a day, assisting 114 people each day. The Coast Guard does not charge for its services.

"When the United States military flies support to civilian SAR operations, it is logged as training time for them, while fulfilling a humanitarian purpose. That time flying, and the costs budgeted for it, would otherwise have been spent doing the same thing -- training -- but under less intense, less realistic conditions.

"Military leaders themselves agree that their crews receive extraordinary experience in often severe conditions when responding to civilian SAR operations. This experience allows them to do things such as combat SAR operations in the difficult military operations.

"The National Park Service, which also des not charge subjects for their search and rescue costs, defrays the cost of search and rescue among all visitors as part of the Park visitation pass. The search and rescue cost per visitor is 1.5 cents."

The following user would like to thank DukeJH for this post
mrchad9

User Avatar
Marmaduke

 
Posts: 1541
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:08 am
Thanked: 729 times in 562 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by Marmaduke » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:10 pm

With all the discussion on the financial responsibility of the situation, has there been an update on the climbers health?

User Avatar
96avs01

 
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:31 pm
Thanked: 59 times in 47 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by 96avs01 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:55 pm

stinkysox77 wrote:Considering I've read about 5 helicopter rescues or searches in the Sierras in the last week, I don't think its just replacing training time...


How many were CA residents vs. PCT or JMT thru hikers from other states/countries? Should SAR/CHP tell them they won't extract until we've confirmed a method of payment?

User Avatar
AceSierra

 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:06 pm
Thanked: 11 times in 6 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by AceSierra » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:29 pm

stinkysox77 wrote:I guess I'm in the vast minority with the belief that if you get hurt or lost while venturing into the backcountry you should be responsible for the cost required to save you. Personal responsibility and accountability is quickly disappearing in our modern society, and I think that's a problem.


I just think this is not the best place to complain about your "personal responsibility" agenda (we all know what that's code for). You're simply barking up the wrong tree. I'm sure there are many other areas of society your textbook, inflexible ideology fits into, but this is not one of them.

The following user would like to thank AceSierra for this post
fatdad

User Avatar
mrchad9

 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:01 am
Thanked: 1338 times in 911 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by mrchad9 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:43 pm

I shouldn't have to pay income or property taxes for someone else's children to go to school. Forget about all this rescue shit it is nothing compared to that.

User Avatar
bobpickering

 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:06 pm
Thanked: 58 times in 30 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by bobpickering » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:46 pm

mrchad9 wrote:I shouldn't have to pay income or property taxes for someone else's children to go to school. Forget about all this rescue shit it is nothing compared to that.

I don’t mind supporting the public schools. I got a good education there. I object when Trump and DeVos give my money to religious schools that will teach our kids that evolution is a hoax and the earth is 6,000 years old.

User Avatar
Jesus Malverde

 
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:17 pm
Thanked: 140 times in 90 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by Jesus Malverde » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:52 pm

This might be an odd place for a new book plug, but here goes.
Perhaps understanding the experience of an Eastside SAR worker might provide more insight from different angles into this "lively" topic? Dying alone seems like a shitty way to die. Just a thought.

The Shortest Straw: Search and Rescue in the High Sierra
by Dean Rosnau

https://www.amazon.com/Shortest-Straw-S ... B0731N4WJF
https://www.theshorteststraw.net/shop

also, ST chatter:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... 88320&tn=0

The following user would like to thank Jesus Malverde for this post
LincolnB

User Avatar
Luciano136

 
Posts: 3778
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:46 pm
Thanked: 11 times in 10 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by Luciano136 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:48 am

While I understand the point you're trying to make, you can't possibly make that a rule or law. It would lead to endless discussions and arguments. Should we be paying for the health expenses incurred by overweight people? Should I pay for emergency services to transport a crashed drunk driver to the hospital? The list would go on and on.


stinkysox77 wrote:I guess I'm in the vast minority with the belief that if you get hurt or lost while venturing into the backcountry you should be responsible for the cost required to save you. Personal responsibility and accountability is quickly disappearing in our modern society, and I think that's a problem.

User Avatar
stinkysox77

 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 7:22 pm
Thanked: 158 times in 110 posts

Re: Fall and injury on Mt Abbott

by stinkysox77 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:51 pm

Luciano136 wrote:While I understand the point you're trying to make, you can't possibly make that a rule or law. It would lead to endless discussions and arguments. Should we be paying for the health expenses incurred by overweight people? Should I pay for emergency services to transport a crashed drunk driver to the hospital? The list would go on and on.


stinkysox77 wrote:I guess I'm in the vast minority with the belief that if you get hurt or lost while venturing into the backcountry you should be responsible for the cost required to save you. Personal responsibility and accountability is quickly disappearing in our modern society, and I think that's a problem.



I really don't think it would lead to endless discussion. No, we shouldn't be paying for overweight people's health issues that are related to weight. There is a cost to not being healthy, and I believe that cost shouldn't be burdened onto others. No, I don't think you should pay for emergency services to transport a crashed drunk driver either. Emergency services should be provided, but upon determination that the recipient of the services was in need due to their own negligence they receive a bill in full for the cost of their mistake. The same should apply to anyone who willingly goes into the wilderness and encounters an accident that requires costly rescue.

But I know my opinion on these matters is in the minority, and that the argument can be made that by providing these services we live in a better society that benefits us all more than if we did not provide these services.

PreviousNext

Return to Ethics, Spray, and Slander

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests