Going to tackle Elbrus again this year. But as my body seems to adjust slowly to heigth, I'm looking for a "fool-proof" acclimatisation schedule.

Some mountain pages have schedules like this, but I'm looking to find one that doesn't take camps or other convenient things into account. I'm looking for something that should work for every "normal" person on any mountain (but for now Elbrus' altitude is high enough). For the record, I've been higher, but felt really bad... . Trying to avoid that in the future.

I'm planning to get a physical in before I go. And if the doctor prescribes diamox I'm likely to take it. I've had it with feeling bad on my vacations.

Have you read Dr. Charles Houston's book? It's the most complete compilation of altitude physiology I've seen, and should help you design a plan.

WouterB wrote:I'm looking for something that should work for every "normal" person on any mountain

I think most people, when they get over 10,000 feet, have few problems if they stick to an ascent rate that averages 1,000 feet per day. I know some will not feel too good if they ascend too quickly between camps (i.e. take 3 hours to go up 3,000 feet instead of taking say 5 hours) but it's different for everyone. Also, it helps to keep active on rest days...meaning...take a day pack and go up another 1500 feet or so instead of just sitting around camp.

Good luck on Elbrus.

concur with the 1,000' per day as far as camp location as far as it's practical, if you move camp 3-4,000ft higher above 10K try to take a rest day or 2 before you move camp higher.

the sweet spot on something like 14.5K Rainier is like 3 days at 9K, then the climb to the top is enjoyable and not a death march

and climb high sleep low

hydration, hydration, hydration. Hydrate on an empty stomach before you eat

Consider an energy gel regimen on hard exercise days, it allows for easier/better hydration. I typically have nothing solid at all to eat until dinner, after a couple of days of that my body doesn't want solid food if there's altitude work ahead.

read the particulars of diamox if you take it, it depletes potassium, which is already depleted when exercising, and can dehydrate

I've had good luck with Ginkgo for increased blood/brain circulation, but not everyone does.

I was discussing this on another board and it's something that Houston doesn't really touch on directly. There's two things happening when you go to altitude. A pressure differential adjustment and an oxygen depletion adjustment. These are two different things happening that affect each other. You can train for oxygen depletion but pressure differential can only be accommodated by the 1000ft per/day gain.

I'll cut and paste what I already wrote about the 2 adjustments

The human body is a sealed system. At sea level internal pressure is the same inside as the air pressure is outside. When you go up air pressure decreases and the body slowly equalizes it's internal pressure to match. It happens much slower than you can climb, about 1,000ft per day. This is pressure change acclimatization. Part of the effects of HAPE are caused by this pressure difference, when the pressures are unequal fluids are pushed into the lungs. The effect is similar when divers get what they call the "bends" from ascending from depth too fast, the external/internal pressures don't equalize that fast.

Oxygen level acclimatization is the body adjusting to less available oxygen. It does this by increasing red blood cell count from bone marrow and growing more capillaries among other things. This is where your body can learn to acclimatize and do so quicker than someone not used to altitude. This can also be counteracted by increasing aerobic capacity through training, as you have emphasized saying training helps.

Thanks for the advice!
I did Elbrus without a group last year and I'm planning to do so again this year. I'm going with the same climbing partner too.

The fact is that I was sufficiently acclimatized to reach the summit last year. We just hit really bad weather for four days, so we couldn't summit. I made it up to 53*0m or something and didn't feel too bad. We did spent about 12 days acclimatizing though and I had a lot of problems in those first few days. I'm just looking for ways to avoid feeling so bad when I'm doing what I love most.

For this year it has been decided that we'll go super-slow. And we'll climb cheget first too, which should help.

The human body is a sealed system. At sea level internal pressure is the same inside as the air pressure is outside. When you go up air pressure decreases and the body slowly equalizes it's internal pressure to match. It happens much slower than you can climb, about 1,000ft per day[/code]

Not sure about this one buckaroo. I would have thought our body is anything but a sealed system.

radson wrote:

The human body is a sealed system. At sea level internal pressure is the same inside as the air pressure is outside. When you go up air pressure decreases and the body slowly equalizes it's internal pressure to match. It happens much slower than you can climb, about 1,000ft per day[/code]

Not sure about this one buckaroo. I would have thought our body is anything but a sealed system.

It makes sense if you think about it, except for a few exceptions, our body is sealed up. There may be a few release and intake valves here and there, but it's pretty well sealed. Of course, I went for the aftermarket seam taping on mine just because I don't want stuff creeping in or oozing out at the wrong time.

Fair enough, although I guess in my mind, I think those exceptions negate the premsie.

Every time my ears pop in a plane or I go scuba diving, my body is doing some fairly rapid equalising.

From memory, the recently deceased Houston's book discusses the 18th century balloon exploits and the WW11 bomber pilot trials , I cant recall people exploding with rapid massive depressurisation.

WouterB wrote:But as my body seems to adjust slowly to heigth, I'm looking for a "fool-proof" acclimatisation schedule.

I'm planning to get a physical in before I go. And if the doctor prescribes diamox I'm likely to take it. I've had it with feeling bad on my vacations.

I don't believe anything is fool proof. Even the same person will acclimate differently each trip. Only thing that is 'foolproof' is lots of water, food and time.
And I hate Diamox- cons outweight pros...only my opinion of course; others swear by it.

radson wrote:Fair enough, although I guess in my mind, I think those exceptions negate the premsie.

Every time my ears pop in a plane or I go scuba diving, my body is doing some fairly rapid equalising.

From memory, the recently deceased Houston's book discusses the 18th century balloon exploits and the WW11 bomber pilot trials , I cant recall people exploding with rapid massive depressurisation.

ears pop because there's an air passage on both sides, diving is water not air and you are increasing pressure as you go down not decreasing as you go up climbing, and if you dive deep enough and go too fast it will kill you also.

quickly go to 30,000 from sea level and stay there, you can have all the oxygen you want via a breathing apparatus. You will die from hape and or hace.

the balloons and bomber pilots was short term.

Buckaroo wrote:

radson wrote:Fair enough, although I guess in my mind, I think those exceptions negate the premsie.

Every time my ears pop in a plane or I go scuba diving, my body is doing some fairly rapid equalising.

From memory, the recently deceased Houston's book discusses the 18th century balloon exploits and the WW11 bomber pilot trials , I cant recall people exploding with rapid massive depressurisation.

ears pop because there's an air passage on both sides, diving is water not air and you are increasing pressure as you go down not decreasing as you go up climbing, and if you dive deep enough and go too fast it will kill you also.

quickly go to 30,000 from sea level and stay there, you can have all the oxygen you want via a breathing apparatus. You will die from hape and or hace.

the balloons and bomber pilots was short term.

yeah, um what situation does one quickly to 30,000' and stay there long enough to get HAPE and HACE and how is that related to a 'sealed system'?

Out of interest, the world record for the wingsuit guys is 39,000'.

WouterB wrote:Going to tackle Elbrus again this year. But as my body seems to adjust slowly to heigth, I'm looking for a "fool-proof" acclimatisation schedule.

Some mountain pages have schedules like this, but I'm looking to find one that doesn't take camps or other convenient things into account. I'm looking for something that should work for every "normal" person on any mountain (but for now Elbrus' altitude is high enough). For the record, I've been higher, but felt really bad... . Trying to avoid that in the future.

I'm planning to get a physical in before I go. And if the doctor prescribes diamox I'm likely to take it. I've had it with feeling bad on my vacations.

I also seem to not be able to avoid feeling like crap during acclimatization. I think I've come to the conclusion that at least some suffering is unavoidable: the best I can hope for is to a) reduce the symptoms and b) to time the ascent in such a way that the bouts of sickness occur before any summit attempt. The first can be accomplished by methods previously suggested (staying hydrated, eating properly, allowing sufficient time to acclimate). Diamox also does help to a degree in my experience, but again, only to mitigate the effects - not to get rid of them. For temporary relief, I find Excedrin to be the most effective in alleviating the common AMS symptoms (headache, nausea, etc.), but the drawback is that it contains caffeine, which makes it not so great if you're taking it before going to sleep. Interestingly, in my case the onset of the symptoms is usually delayed: in other words, I will typically feel fine on the ascent and on the summit, but then on the descent it starts to kick in. I suppose in some ways this isn't so bad - at least I'm losing altitude, and the symptoms normally go away on their own after a few hours. After that, they will generally not reoccur unless I move to a significantly higher altitude than I've previously been at. This is where the timing strategy comes in: for example, you can acclimate by doing a non-technical but high altitude hike; this way you will get all of your AMS over with before you deal with anything technical or otherwise difficult.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid for people like me (and I think you) there's no "magic formula" - it's kind of an ongoing struggle that you have to keep waging in order to stay on top. At least that's been my experience - but maybe yours will be different.

Good luck!

I think one very significant factor is the mental one. I hike/climb with a few people who don't acclimate particularly well and it seems like it might be sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, where you get so focused on altitude and it's effects that you inevitably start feeling those effects. I think a good excersize would be to find a hike that you know you are going to be at a high altitude and bring along an iPod or an entertaining friend so you can work on not focusing on the altitude. Don't look at a map, gps, or altimeter and try your hardest to not even think about what altitude you're at. While the problem is certainly not all mental, I think that this sort of mental training will help you deal with the acclimating and help you enjoy climbs and hikes much more.

Also, I know it's obvious, but I drink a whole lot of water and take two preventative aspirin before bed (good night's sleep is imperitive) and after I wake up.

Thanks AlexeyD and drpw.
I've been talking with a Belgian friend who's summited six out of the seven summits (all but karstenz) again. He told me that he's been consistently sick when getting above 3500m. He's taken diamox on every trip since he started. And still, he confessed to feeling miserable every single time. It's not the way I'm hoping it to be for me, but... .

Yeah. That seems to be the magic number. 3500-3700 M (11,000 - 11,550 ft or so) is the point. When things start to happen. I really think you need to do 4 days there. Or one day middle and 3 days at that number. Getting sick in the opening few days really reduces your chances of a favorable outcome.

Bon Chance in August!!