redneck wrote:

SoCalHiker wrote:

Bob Sihler wrote:Although I totally disagree with the views you've expressed here about grizzlies, I do commend you for this: you don't like them and therefore choose not to go where they are. Would that others were as honest and did the same instead of going and expecting to impose their rules.

I have to completely agree with Bob here. I respect Redneck for that too.

<Sniff> You guys have no idea how much that means to me. Especially coming from Bob, him being so brave and tough and all.

Aw, how sweet! Sniffs from me, too!

And thanks for the post about the guns.

dskoon wrote:Ie, see the thread about the Griz shot up in Denali. I believe it was supposedly charging, (bluff or not, we'll never know), and the guy shot and killed it with a handgun. Pretty sure about this. There have got to be handguns, given the right circumstances, that will stop a bear, as was the case here.

You're right, of course, never say never. There have in fact been lots of examples of handguns taking down grizzlies (probably smaller ones). Shot placement is everything.

But I am talking about probabilities of reliably bringing down an animal weighing close to 1,000 lbs. Handguns are far less powerful than rifles.

I used to spend a lot of time on shooting ranges. There are few people, even among professionals, who can shoot handguns worth a damn. Another vote for the long gun: power and a longer sight radius.

dskoon wrote:Ah, Redneck, totally true?
Ie, see the thread about the Griz shot up in Denali. I believe it was supposedly charging, (bluff or not, we'll never know), and the guy shot and killed it with a handgun. Pretty sure about this. There have got to be handguns, given the right circumstances, that will stop a bear, as was the case here.

There are always exceptions-- I remember another case from Wyoming last year or two years ago in which a man who was being mauled managed to shoot and kill a grizzly with a handgun, but Redneck's talking about what will reliably take down a grizzly or other animal of similar size. You need the right weapon, perfect aim, and the presence of mind all at once in a matter of a few seconds.

Kristoria really hit the nail on the head here in my opinion. Some people fear death more than others to begin with and coupled with the fact that some fear wildlife in general, their fear becomes an irrational thought that could not be explained to the rest of us.

If it was not for good weather these past few days causing me to climb everyday, I would have certainly wrote a letter to the local editor regarding an issue that in a way is a bit related (irrational fear). Some lady in Calgary got ran over by a bicycle and died. Freak accident, whatever, going to happen based on numbers no doubt. Who knows the details, who cares. The bottom line is, all these letters that poured in clamoring about the hazards of being a pedestrian in Canmore! One lady said there should be more RCMP and Code Enforcement hired to monitor and give out tickets to bicyclist for such violations as in not having a bell on their damn bicycle. Another guy wrote in complaining about bicycles interfering with auto traffic downtown! Of course I have no stupid bell on my damn mountain bike. I don't ride with a helmet either, regular felon as is the norm when I ride to town I guess.

Anyway, the letter I was going to write (thank god the deadline has passed) in response was something along the lines...."you are damn right, we need to raise your property taxes to hire more code enforcement officers to keep these arrogant bicycle operators in check...they are constantly pulling out in front of my 3/4 ton diesel with no warning!!!"

This past week a young lady on Skoki Pass trail (behind Lake Louise ski hill) made the mistake of taking her dog up the wrong trail. Mother grizzly sow with cubs, ran right at her to get the dog, dog slipped out of its collar and ran for its life.....sow returned after chasing the dog off quite a distance, retrieved her cubs and was on her way....young woman left unharmed. Shit happens with bears, almost as unpredictable as humans at times, best not to provoke it of course. I still run trails with a friend who lost his wife on those very trails to a grizzly attack. I still know way more folks dying by other methods to be sure and have no more fear of being killed by a Grizzly then a massive rock taking out my belay somewhere. If it is going to happen, so be it. Carry a gun? What a joke, but I realize many here are car campers. Some of us actually really venture into the backcountry with tons of climbing gear on our back and weigh our choices in ounces. (don't think Canadians fear the apocalypse quite as much, they do not allow guns to be carried in their national parks)

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:Ie, see the thread about the Griz shot up in Denali. I believe it was supposedly charging, (bluff or not, we'll never know), and the guy shot and killed it with a handgun. Pretty sure about this. There have got to be handguns, given the right circumstances, that will stop a bear, as was the case here.

You're right, of course, never say never. There have in fact been lots of examples of handguns taking down grizzlies (probably smaller ones). Shot placement is everything.

But I am talking about probabilities of reliably bringing down an animal weighing close to 1,000 lbs. Handguns are far less powerful than rifles.

I used to spend a lot of time on shooting ranges. There are few people, even among professionals, who can shoot handguns worth a damn. Another vote for the long gun: power and a longer sight radius.

Being a non-gun owner, (ok, I do own an old 22 winchester, replica of a 30-30, but I havent' fired it in a few decades), I'd have to agree with your assessment, ie, the chances of getting off a good shot with a handgun, shot placement on the animal, etc. are not good under the duress of an attack. Much better having the rifle, as is the case with the polar bears. All of my expertise comes from watching old westerns. Not sure Jeremiah Johnson shot any of those Griz with a handgun.

I'm just not 100% sold on the idea of pepper spray. It is great in theory by highly unreliable. I have a decent amount of experience deploying pepper spray and have found that in 40% of situations the winds blowing the wrong way and the intended target is never reached (once the spray even blew back and instead of giving me the advantage, it put me at a huge disadvantage).

I am all for saving the bears life too, if both mine and the bears life can be preserved. But if only one of us will live, i'd rather it be me. I'm not saying you should shoot every bear you see, or even that it is likely you would ever be attacked, just that it never hurts to be prepared. And having a gun on for the "just in case situation" gets you a lot further than the "i've always preached guns shouldn't be used on bears but I wish I had one now" approach.

I assume when everyone is saying pepper spray is 90% effective they mean 90% of the time that the pepper spray actually reaches the targeted bear, the bear retreats. I could believe this, but there is not enough research or documented man/bear encounters to provide data on other factors.

Everyone keeps saying if a bear charges from 30 feet you would only have time to fire a gun one time and that one shot would more than likely provoke than kill the bear. If the bear began charging from 30 feet away and you pulled pepper spray and the wind was blowing back into your face you would have to wait until that bear was within 5 to 6 feet to deploy spray. There would be about one tenth of a second between spraying early and only getting yourself and spraying the bear. If your gun were holstered you might not even get one shot off (off course you might not get to draw your pepper spray either). But in the event that you saw the bear approaching or that it hesitated before deciding to charge, if your gun were already drawn you could ideally fire 3 to 5 rounds in the 1.5 seconds it took the bear to cover 30 feet. Also, once the bear was on you, if you had pepper spray you could no longer use it, you could still use a gun at that close of a range.

Lastly, there is the argument of would the bullet be effective? Your typical FMJ would have to be perfectly placed on a grizzly (would certainly kill a black bear though). More than likely it would just hit and harm the bear and piss it off even worse. The chances of you perfectly placing a shot on a charging grizzly would be slimmest to none. However, I carry hollowed point armor piercing rounds and am confident that it would penetrate and cause damage. One shot might not do it, but it would be enough to slow the bear down so I could get a few more off.

Again, the ideal situation would be something less than lethal that would get the bear off of me, but pepper spray is not dependable. Ask any police officer about the effectiveness of pepper spray, it's not dependable, conditions aren't always ideal to deploy it, that's why everyone is carrying tasers now, there is no wind factor and it's more effective.

Maybe that's what they need are supercharged tasers strong enough to halt a charging Grizzly. Until then I will make noise, stand still, talk firmly, make myself look big, and draw my gun and see whether the bear retreats or charges. I'm not a gun nut, I don't own 50 guns, I don't plot to harm people with differing opinions than mine, I'm just someone who believes it being prepared to defend their self in any situation, because you can hike in the woods 50,000 times and never be attacked or go to the grocery store 50,000 times and never be robbed, but it only takes that one encounter that goes wrong to end your life and change the lives of everyone around you.

You can't conclude that just because someone carries a gun they are paranoid and will be jumpy. I have drawn my gun at least 50 times in my career, many times in high stress and scary situations, but have never fired it period, much less out of fear.

gwave47 wrote:I'm just not 100% sold on the idea of pepper spray. It is great in theory by highly unreliable. I have a decent amount of experience deploying pepper spray and have found that in 40% of situations the winds blowing the wrong way and the intended target is never reached (once the spray even blew back and instead of giving me the advantage, it put me at a huge disadvantage).

I am all for saving the bears life too, if both mine and the bears life can be preserved. But if only one of us will live, i'd rather it be me. I'm not saying you should shoot every bear you see, or even that it is likely you would ever be attacked, just that it never hurts to be prepared. And having a gun on for the "just in case situation" gets you a lot further than the "i've always preached guns shouldn't be used on bears but I wish I had one now" approach.

I assume when everyone is saying pepper spray is 90% effective they mean 90% of the time that the pepper spray actually reaches the targeted bear, the bear retreats. I could believe this, but there is not enough research or documented man/bear encounters to provide data on other factors.

Everyone keeps saying if a bear charges from 30 feet you would only have time to fire a gun one time and that one shot would more than likely provoke than kill the bear. If the bear began charging from 30 feet away and you pulled pepper spray and the wind was blowing back into your face you would have to wait until that bear was within 5 to 6 feet to deploy spray. There would be about one tenth of a second between spraying early and only getting yourself and spraying the bear. If your gun were holstered you might not even get one shot off (off course you might not get to draw your pepper spray either). But in the event that you saw the bear approaching or that it hesitated before deciding to charge, if your gun were already drawn you could ideally fire 3 to 5 rounds in the 1.5 seconds it took the bear to cover 30 feet. Also, once the bear was on you, if you had pepper spray you could no longer use it, you could still use a gun at that close of a range.

Lastly, there is the argument of would the bullet be effective? Your typical FMJ would have to be perfectly placed on a grizzly (would certainly kill a black bear though). More than likely it would just hit and harm the bear and piss it off even worse. The chances of you perfectly placing a shot on a charging grizzly would be slimmest to none. However, I carry hollowed point armor piercing rounds and am confident that it would penetrate and cause damage. One shot might not do it, but it would be enough to slow the bear down so I could get a few more off.

Again, the ideal situation would be something less than lethal that would get the bear off of me, but pepper spray is not dependable. Ask any police officer about the effectiveness of pepper spray, it's not dependable, conditions aren't always ideal to deploy it, that's why everyone is carrying tasers now, there is no wind factor and it's more effective.

Maybe that's what they need are supercharged tasers strong enough to halt a charging Grizzly. Until then I will make noise, stand still, talk firmly, make myself look big, and draw my gun and see whether the bear retreats or charges. I'm not a gun nut, I don't own 50 guns, I don't plot to harm people with differing opinions than mine, I'm just someone who believes it being prepared to defend their self in any situation, because you can hike in the woods 50,000 times and never be attacked or go to the grocery store 50,000 times and never be robbed, but it only takes that one encounter that goes wrong to end your life and change the lives of everyone around you.

You can't conclude that just because someone carries a gun they are paranoid and will be jumpy. I have drawn my gun at least 50 times in my career, many times in high stress and scary situations, but have never fired it period, much less out of fear.

Fair enough. We'll continue to disagree on the need or appropriateness of a gun in the wilderness, but that's a well-written post. I could argue over a few things, but I really don't think there's much left to say in this thread.

Pepper spray is not effective on a bear high on meth!

Bombchaser wrote:Pepper spray is not effective on a bear high on meth!

Or if all the nerve endings in his nose are dead from sniffing too much cocaine!

gwave47 wrote:I'm just not 100% sold on the idea of pepper spray. ... If your gun were holstered you might not even get one shot off (off course you might not get to draw your pepper spray either). But in the event that you saw the bear approaching or that it hesitated before deciding to charge, if your gun were already drawn you could ideally fire 3 to 5 rounds in the 1.5 seconds it took the bear to cover 30 feet. ...

The thing I notice is that most people who rely on guns don't really have the gun handy. A lot of times it's in their pack or slung in a way they'd never get at it in a close encounter. On the other hand, there are the gun packers who walk along the trail with the gun drawn, ready to fire. Those guys scare me because they're at risk to pop a person by mistake. To me, the one really viable gun option is to be very proficient with large handguns (gwave, you probably are, but most people aren't) and have it holstered.

Pepper spray is easier--it's always on your hip and great for a very close encounter in the woods or brush. It doesn't require skill (a couple of test firings and you're all set), and nobody else dies if you mess up when you shoot it. Blowback is a problem out in the open, but dangerous encounters are easier to avoid in the first place in the open. Pepper spray also might be a better bet for a tent attack in the dark--groggy people, loaded guns, pitch darkness, and wild confusion surely are not a great mix in the confines of a tent. But I'm not aware of many tent attacks that have been successfully repelled by either means.

chugach mtn boy wrote:Pepper spray is easier--it's always on your hip and great for a very close encounter in the woods or brush. It doesn't require skill (a couple of test firings and you're all set), and nobody else dies if you mess up when you shoot it.

If it's bear spray, they'll just wish they had.

redneck wrote:If it's bear spray, they'll just wish they had.

You're right about that! I shot some downwind once and then had it swirl in some eddies somewhere and come back on me a minute later and a hundred yards away. It had to have been hugely diluted by then but ... holy crap. That stuff is powerful.

chugach mtn boy wrote:

redneck wrote:If it's bear spray, they'll just wish they had.

You're right about that! I shot some downwind once and then had it swirl in some eddies somewhere and come back on me a minute later and a hundred yards away. It had to have been hugely diluted by then but ... holy crap. That stuff is powerful.

chugach mtn boy wrote:Pepper spray also might be a better bet for a tent attack in the dark

I'm not so sure about the idea of spraying that stuff in the confines of a tent, given the information in the first quote.

Kind of a last resort, no doubt about it!

What, verbal judo doesn't work when a bear is charging you? Dammit all to hell!!!