Hello,

If I plan on wearing a soft shell and a hard shell, do I still need to wear a down over or under the hard shell?

It just depends wear you are going and what kind of conditions you are going to be in. Generally speaking, I don't wear a hardshell and a soft shell together. Usually, in the winter, I wear a base layer that is wool, another long sleeve over that, then a pull over or zip up fleece, then a hardshell or a softshell on top. In colder conditions, I wear a down jacket under the hard shell just to protect it from the elements. If you had the down over the hardshell or softshell and you were in the rain or snow it would get soaked and loose most of its warmth. Hope that helps!

Like Alex said depends on where you're headed what you're doing. I'm generally a warm climber therefore I wear shell type outerwear with light active wear underneath all day for moving. At belays mountaineering/ice climbing I wear my down parka to keep my heat. Then when on overnight alpine climbs in cold conditions I usually only wear my down at camp or long breaks and in the tent. If you are using a down parka it should be cold enough out that any precipitation is snow and shouldn't worry much about protecting it. I never wear mine under a shell to prevent crushing its loft/ heat saving ability. If it's wet out wear hard shell and protect your down by leaving it packed away!

Thank you very much both of you!

I'm going to be climbing Kilimanjaro. So just go with a down instead of hard and soft shell?

I personally would go with hard shell and down. Shell for protection during incliment weather at high activity times, and down for at night in camp/tent.

Ikarium wrote: So just go with a down instead of hard and soft shell?

Down dose not insulate when wet. If it rains and your down gets wet then it is useless.

I use all, soft shell, hard shell and down. Base layer, zip-up fleece, soft shell for hiking/climbing in cold conditions. Then if it is even colder, I put the hard shell on top of soft shell. Down jacket usually stays in the pack for bivies, or around the camp. If I'm forced to use the down, I put it on top of the hard shell.

Maybe a synthetic layer under the hardshell. Something like MH Compressor, Outdoor Research Havoc, Marmot Baffin. Save the heavy parka for rest stops or truly frigid conditions.

Also, there are some soft shell/insulating hybrids, and here I'm thinking of the Arcteryx Venta and OR Halogen, I'm sure there's others.

I've never heard of wearing a down layer over a hard or soft shell. Shells provide wind and water protection whereas down apparel is generally minimally protective (at least in terms of using down as a middle layer). The warmth of dry, high-quality goose down can't be beat whether in a bivy or under a shell.

peninsula wrote:I've never heard of wearing a down layer over a hard or soft shell. Shells provide wind and water protection whereas down apparel is generally minimally protective (at least in terms of using down as a middle layer). The warmth of dry, high-quality goose down can't be beat whether in a bivy or under a shell.

Most climbers will wear insulation layer (down or synthetic) as the outer shell during period of inactivity such as deblaying the leader or follower.

divnamite wrote:

peninsula wrote:I've never heard of wearing a down layer over a hard or soft shell. Shells provide wind and water protection whereas down apparel is generally minimally protective (at least in terms of using down as a middle layer). The warmth of dry, high-quality goose down can't be beat whether in a bivy or under a shell.

Most climbers will wear insulation layer (down or synthetic) as the outer shell during period of inactivity such as deblaying the leader or follower.

Bingo.

When I don't need to protect my down from either dampness/weather or tears (bushwhacking, etc.) - such as sitting around camp or eating lunch - I wear my down as the outermost layer. This way a) The hardshell serves as the wind barrier while b) I leverage the most loft from the down layer - as it's not being compacted by a hardshell. Additionally, once I'm ready to motor again, I simply pull off the top layer of down, stow and go.

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I sweat too damn much when climbing/hiking to even consider down. You can have the best dwr in the world on the outside of the garment, but if you sweat much, the down will get soaked from the inside. BTDT.
Primaloft 1 for this boy!

I see that people are talking about different uses of down clothing and from different perspective. I think it should be noted that down vests/shirts/full-zips/pullovers/hoodies/jackets/parkas/suits are all made for different purposes, quality and most importantly, with different shell material. The simplest ones that you see people wear to the bars, Wholefoods and soccer games are probably made with nylon shell that is not waterproof or windproof. I once sneezed hard on a friend's neon pink, see-through down pullover and it disintegrated. Avoid these for outdoor uses. At the other end of the spectrum, down parkas and Himalayan suits for expedition use are going to protect you from a nuclear blast. Just pick the one that's best suited for your outdoor pursuit.

For the OP, I heard from a reliable source that if you wring moisture from elephant droppings onto down gear, it'll waterproof the down. There's a symbiotic relationship between geese and elephants.

TimB wrote:I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I sweat too damn much when climbing/hiking to even consider down. You can have the best dwr in the world on the outside of the garment, but if you sweat much, the down will get soaked from the inside. BTDT.
Primaloft 1 for this boy!

Why would you wear down or synthetic when you are on high output activity? For wind blocking, something like the houdini would be prefect.

divnamite wrote:

TimB wrote:I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I sweat too damn much when climbing/hiking to even consider down. You can have the best dwr in the world on the outside of the garment, but if you sweat much, the down will get soaked from the inside. BTDT.
Primaloft 1 for this boy!

Why would you wear down or synthetic when you are on high output activity? For wind blocking, something like the houdini would be prefect.

Many instances- such as when resting, or while on belay duty. Anytime I wanted a warm layer over my base/mid/shell. Also, you can't dry your 'active layers' to well with down(without 'wetting' the insulation) but you can with a synthetic parka. YMMV