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How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Kahuna » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:14 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:So why not just buy a two-color rope in the first place? Are they that much more expensive and is your life worth that extra expense?


Not all ropes come in Doudess format.


When one owns several ropes (14 of em) and climbs several times a week and not once or twice a year, yes that can get "expensive".
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby CClaude » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:33 am

MoapaPk wrote:Just for emphasis, I again implore you to read:
The original 2002 UIAA tests that showed a possible 50% strength loss for ropes masked with felt tip pens, are briefly summarized in this document:
http://www.sterlingrope.com/media/docum ... manual.pdf READ THE ENTIRE section with the caveat by Pit Shubert, of UIAA.
Again recall what the UIAA means by 50% reduction.

The above report also found that getting a rope wet could reduce "strength" by 70%. That is more of a worry to me, as ropes tend to get wet all along their lengths.

CClaude seems to be focusing on some extreme scenarios that could degrade a rope. We do know that sulfuric acid is a bad actor, but I don't think it will be present in commercial markers with a "0" MSDS health rating. I'm pretty sure I could detect creosol just by odor.

I'm somewhat amazed, given that I see extremely worn, fuzzy, highly discolored ropes being used in yeoman duty all the time. Our club simply retires and cuts up ropes that have more than 3 bad falls.

A lot of static ropes nowadays are polyester sheaths on Dyneema, which generally shows even less solvent effect than nylon.


The difference is in degradation or dissolution. sulfuric acid can act both ways by either hydrolysis of the amide bonds ( not sure if its the primary actor in nylon-6,6) or interuption of the hydrogen bonds ( since when I used to DISSOLVE nylon-6,6 I used to use p-cresol ( a phenolic substance). if you want to dissolve something ( where the rope strength would go from significant to mush) the first step is to break up the intramolecular interactions ( in nylons, thats the hydrogen bonds). You do that and the material becomes mush. That is why if you want to dissolve Kevlar which is an aromatic nylon( something that is a bitch to do without using anhydrous sulfuric acid, which DISSOLVES it no degrades it, you simply throw in some Lithium Bromide into the solvent ( with the lithium interacting more strongly with the carbonyl in the nylon then the amide).

This is how phenolics dissolve ( see the link for the chemical compatability for nylon 6,6 I had previously Supplied the link to)? And its not just cresol, but phenolics in general.

It would be interesting to look at various phenolic based dyes ( there are several) and see if they interact with nylon.

Just saying the active player maybe something that you aren't thinking of and may appear benign. Who would have thought that trace sulfuric acid found on the pavement ( which is where the owner thought he picked it up if I remember correctly) would have snapped the rope in the Sacramento climbing gym. Not like he threw his rope onto his engine.

But of you want to go with your "critical" thinking, go for it. Like I said, logically I KNOW that the various octanes ( from experiments) has no affect on nylon, but there is now way in hell I'm exposing my climbing ropes to gasoline ( since I have no clue of the additives and contaminates and how they affect it).

And if you can't understand simple freshman chemistry then I am pretty through thring to explain something pretty basic.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Kahuna » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:19 am

CClaude wrote:
MoapaPk wrote:Just for emphasis, I again implore you to read:
The original 2002 UIAA tests that showed a possible 50% strength loss for ropes masked with felt tip pens, are briefly summarized in this document:
http://www.sterlingrope.com/media/docum ... manual.pdf READ THE ENTIRE section with the caveat by Pit Shubert, of UIAA.
Again recall what the UIAA means by 50% reduction.

The above report also found that getting a rope wet could reduce "strength" by 70%. That is more of a worry to me, as ropes tend to get wet all along their lengths.

CClaude seems to be focusing on some extreme scenarios that could degrade a rope. We do know that sulfuric acid is a bad actor, but I don't think it will be present in commercial markers with a "0" MSDS health rating. I'm pretty sure I could detect creosol just by odor.

I'm somewhat amazed, given that I see extremely worn, fuzzy, highly discolored ropes being used in yeoman duty all the time. Our club simply retires and cuts up ropes that have more than 3 bad falls.

A lot of static ropes nowadays are polyester sheaths on Dyneema, which generally shows even less solvent effect than nylon.


The difference is in degradation or dissolution. sulfuric acid can act both ways by either hydrolysis of the amide bonds ( not sure if its the primary actor in nylon-6,6) or interuption of the hydrogen bonds ( since when I used to DISSOLVE nylon-6,6 I used to use p-cresol ( a phenolic substance). if you want to dissolve something ( where the rope strength would go from significant to mush) the first step is to break up the intramolecular interactions ( in nylons, thats the hydrogen bonds). You do that and the material becomes mush. That is why if you want to dissolve Kevlar which is an aromatic nylon( something that is a bitch to do without using anhydrous sulfuric acid, which DISSOLVES it no degrades it, you simply throw in some Lithium Bromide into the solvent ( with the lithium interacting more strongly with the carbonyl in the nylon then the amide).

This is how phenolics dissolve ( see the link for the chemical compatability for nylon 6,6 I had previously Supplied the link to)? And its not just cresol, but phenolics in general.

It would be interesting to look at various phenolic based dyes ( there are several) and see if they interact with nylon.

Just saying the active player maybe something that you aren't thinking of and may appear benign. Who would have thought that trace sulfuric acid found on the pavement ( which is where the owner thought he picked it up if I remember correctly) would have snapped the rope in the Sacramento climbing gym. Not like he threw his rope onto his engine.

But of you want to go with your "critical" thinking, go for it. Like I said, logically I KNOW that the various octanes ( from experiments) has no affect on nylon, but there is now way in hell I'm exposing my climbing ropes to gasoline ( since I have no clue of the additives and contaminates and how they affect it).

And if you can't understand simple freshman chemistry then I am pretty through thring to explain something pretty basic.



With all this said, can you or anyone please site any recorded catastrophic failure of a rope, anywhere on this planet, due to an improperly marked rope.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby CClaude » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:42 am

Having worked with various governing bodies, rarely do they ever take standards out of their butt, but generally it comes after quite a bit of deliberation, unless something specific initiated it.

Myself, I'm a bit more conservative. Yes, i regularly whip onto "aid only" tiny cams, sometimes placed into sandstone. I often solo on Cinches, but when it comes to my ropes. I don't cut corners. I just whip too often.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:40 am

After another few days I see the negative nancys in this thread are still coming up short when it comes to any actual data either scientific or anecdotal that supports their magic bean claims.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby CClaude » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:58 pm

As for "hearing" about it. Not every accident you hear about or is discussed ad nueasuem on the web. I know a guide who recieved a (bicolor/dueodess) rope. Brand new, first rap on a rap he had done 100 times before( so he knew with a 60m rope) that both ends would touch. Rope was mismarked ( by 85ft). You can probably figure out what happened. How many people heard of this accident?

Probably no one since it ended up in court so no party could discuss it in public.

Personally, I don't use middle marks, i make sure (everytime) that both ends are even.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Kahuna » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:12 pm

CClaude wrote:Personally, I don't use middle marks, i make sure (everytime) that both ends are even.



When the sun has gone down, the wind is howling and blowing the end/s side ways, the snow is flying thicker than smoke and one can not see past their feet, trust me, it is very comforting to have a well defined MIDDLE MARK on a several pitched rap.

Pulling through on a multi-pitched rappel in less than normal/optimum weather can be a far safer completed evolution when the crew has a Middle Mark to speed things up. Getting down in those conditions can be the difference between life and death.Expecially when Mother Nature decides to start shooting electricity outta the sky.

I have lookrd through 20 years of ANAM's and have found 20+ instances where individuals have in fact died from not having their rope equaled when rappeling in the past 15 years. The 2012 issue ponders on this issue.

I have yet to find one instance of any rope damage or failure from a rope miss marked utilizing a "dangerous" burning dye ingredient.

CClaude wrote:As for "hearing" about it. Not every accident you hear about or is discussed ad nueasuem on the web. I know a guide who recieved a (bicolor/dueodess) rope. Brand new, first rap on a rap he had done 100 times before( so he knew with a 60m rope) that both ends would touch. Rope was mismarked ( by 85ft). You can probably figure out what happened. How many people heard of this accident?



First thing I ALWAYS do when I receive/buy a new rope is completely flake it out to untwist it, throughly inspect the entire length for any flaws or nicks and if "Marked" or is a DOUDESS, I ensure that it in fact is the middle.

The individual you cite had to have coiled the rope. If they did not notice the difference, well. The example you noted CC is nothing short of the proverbial issue that is killing many a climber today, regardless their experience. It is called COMPLANCENCY.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby MoapaPk » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:00 pm

Remember-- this stuff has a "0" MSDS Health rating. It's not likely to contain something really nasty. And remember, it's designed as a marker for cloth (which nowadays, usually contain synthetics), so it's not likely to cause a lot of degradation. My uneducated guess is that Sharpie would not sell a lot of clothing markers, if the markers caused clothing to fall apart.

CClaude wrote:Just saying the active player maybe something that you aren't thinking of and may appear benign. Who would have thought that trace sulfuric acid found on the pavement ( which is where the owner thought he picked it up if I remember correctly) would have snapped the rope in the Sacramento climbing gym. Not like he threw his rope onto his engine.

But of you want to go with your "critical" thinking, go for it. Like I said, logically I KNOW that the various octanes ( from experiments) has no affect on nylon, but there is now way in hell I'm exposing my climbing ropes to gasoline ( since I have no clue of the additives and contaminates and how they affect it).

And if you can't understand simple freshman chemistry then I am pretty through thring to explain something pretty basic.


Geez you get nasty when you think people are dissing you.

My reasoning was mainly based on the MSDS health rating (the regulators get disclosure for that rating), and (above all) the actual testing, which you chose to dismiss (and those arguments include mechanical and probability arguments in the links).

Positing that a chemical will have very similar properties to another, just because of similar structures, formulas, or chemical families is a little off-the-wall, isn't it? We can come up with lots of diols or alcohols that are pretty similar, but have vastly different effects for human health. As a very off-the-wall example, PbS and NaCl have the same structure, don't they?

By the way, "affect," as used above in the quote (your text, but my bold), is the incorrect word.The words "effect" and "affect" look and sound similar, but have different properties in sentences.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Kahuna » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:55 pm

Another very nice thing about having a MIDDLE MARKED Rope, the belayer can call out when the leader has reached the half way point when doing an obscure route that has vague beta to go by. This has saved my ass on many occasions when trying to find many of Fred Beckey's and others less traveled routes throughout the US.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Burchey » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:35 pm

gotta git that name-droppin on, yeah!
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Kahuna » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:51 pm

Burchey wrote:gotta git that name-droppin on, yeah!



Name dropping?

Ah, no. Just a fact and example to make my point.

Many of FB's far less traveled routes are just that. Most of them have less than desirable beta, if any, to go by. His routes on the Hermit, the Portal and on the Bastille are perfect examples of that. But many in today's climbing generation would not understand that as they only attempt and get on well published ST guide book trade routes that denote everything including when, where and how to lift your leg in order to pee.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Burchey » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:01 pm

I guess we should all thank the Sky Wizard to have certain folks around to tell us which routes are worthwhile and which ones are rubbish.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby TimB » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:54 pm

Burchey wrote:I guess we should all thank the Sky Wizard to have certain folks around to tell us which routes are worthwhile and which ones are rubbish.


I guess we also ought to be grateful for certain folks that seem to have to chase others around and chit on their posts any chance they get?
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Burchey » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:56 pm

TimB wrote:
Burchey wrote:I guess we should all thank the Sky Wizard to have certain folks around to tell us which routes are worthwhile and which ones are rubbish.


I guess we also ought to be grateful for certain folks that seem to have to chase others around and chit on their posts any chance they get?


Orrrr, even more so - those that can dish it out but are unable to take it. That's my favorite.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby TimB » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:59 pm

Burchey wrote:
TimB wrote:
Burchey wrote:I guess we should all thank the Sky Wizard to have certain folks around to tell us which routes are worthwhile and which ones are rubbish.


I guess we also ought to be grateful for certain folks that seem to have to chase others around and chit on their posts any chance they get?


Orrrr, even more so - those that can dish it out but are unable to take it. That's my favorite.




Guess what I am trying to say is that your trolling is getting old. You have some good things to offer, from what I see, but some of your threads and comments detract from this forum-not help it. And I think that is a pity.
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