mrchad9 wrote:

Bob Sihler wrote:I know what he's getting at and will address it later. The roots go back to earlier this year.

Well thanks Bob, because all kidding aside I really don't. I wasn't trying to make a jab with that post.

I know you weren't.

My response is below.

Guyzo wrote:I really loved what we had before, freedom as climbers to be ourselves.

So "the new change" means we can now show semi nude chicks?

But do not make a statement that shows the "new Elves" in a bad light?

Or have a complaint.

Guy, my limited dealings with you last winter told me you are a good guy (sorry for the crappy pun). You were never one of the forum assholes around here. You got involved in a little spray now and then, but you were also decent enough to apologize to people when you found out you were wrong or thought you'd gone too far. I also know you've done a hell of a lot of climbing and have shared a lot of your experience and advice here.

Guyzo wrote:So its been a while scene I jumped on SP, just for a little internet, fun, diversion.

So maybe you ought to find out what has been going on before making assumptions.

When the elves pulled PnP, you complained loudly about censorship and control and even publicly called on Dave K to step down. You wanted minimal or no moderation. Now you are basically reopening that complaint. Fine.

You will probably recall from PM conversations that I thought it was a bad move to pull PnP. I still am not sure it was a good idea, but I am less certain now that it was a bad idea. The sad fact is that too many people on this site act like children in the forums. Actually, it's only a few and only in a few threads, but they soak up a lot of attention and waste a lot of time. And they mostly stay just on the safe side of the banning/deletion line.

You can complain about us if you like. Here, I'll give you a list to start with:

1. The elves have too many rules.
2. The elves don't have enough rules.
3. The elves don't enforce the rules (translation-- "The elves don't enforce the rules the way I'd like them to").
4. The elves tolerate people who bully women.
5. The elves tolerate bullies in general.
6. The elves should leave the forums alone and let people say and do what they want because this is the Internet and everyone just needs to grow a sack.

I'm sure people here can run with that and develop it.

The people who have built this site are the people whose names are on pages, and I don't mean a few trip reports or route pages or a bunch of pointless albums. It's not built by the people whose names are all over the forums, except for the relative few who contribute to site content as well. Enriched, maybe, in a very few cases. But built? Give us a break. The forum dwellers have a vastly overdeveloped sense of their importance to this site, and so do their followers.

A bunch of forum dwellers threatened to leave after PnP went. Some followed through. SP somehow survived.

A major forum dweller has recently departed. Some are very sad, but SP will move on. The content loss is less than a tiny fraction of a blip.

We are all expendable, truth be told. If the three top contributors to this site left tomorrow and pulled all their work, it would be a huge blow. But in time, some or much (not all) of their work would be replaced. In two or three years, there would be hundreds of new members who would never even know they had been here, and the site would be no different to them for that.

A few years ago, I adopted the abandoned page for Virginia's most popular mountain. It was in a sad state. I have put a lot of work into it. But if I go tomorrow, a few people will say it was a loss, and the site will soon move on. And before long, someone else will put up a page for that mountain.

This is not to say I don't care when good contributors leave. Two recent departures are indeed losses for the site. One of those people was a top contributor and a really nice guy, and I liked and respected him a lot. What has gone on recently has me really bothered. Still, SP will move on.

Now, if the site will move on when the content contributors leave, how much more easily will it move on when people who mainly exist in the forums, whether it be to spray or give good advice, are gone? They don't leave any holes except to the people who liked them.

Frankly, SP needs more content dwellers-- users and contributors-- and fewer forum dwellers.

Off-Route exists for those who need a playground. No, it is not as loose and fun as PnP was. Yes, it has terribly onerous rules like no porn and basically no shitting on people you don't like. But somehow most threads and people there seem to manage just fine under our Orwellian reign.

If anyone here in the forums is feeling horribly abused by our mean rules and stifling of your free expression, let us know and we'll be happy to help ease your pain and make sure you don't have to suffer these indignities on this terrible website any longer, because here's a news flash: there will be a heavier hand in the forums, especially outside Off-Route.

I leave you with the following, the best post from the past few days. It was misinterpreted by one person as self-glorification, but it's not. It's from Dow Williams, so to those of you who don't like him, tough shit. He hit the nail right on the head.

Dow Williams wrote:Guy, the premature demise of SP has been called for since I joined over six years ago. Won't hold my breath waiting for the eventual "slide into oblivion" you mention. For what it is worth, my first hand climbing beta seems to move to the top of Google searches....that observation along with email responses I receive and answer from non members along with a few other members similar experiences.......might actually have more to do with SP's longevity than whoring it up in the forums. But hey, who knows.

I both agree with you, and not, Bob.
I agree about SP will live, and changes are like taking a cup water out of a tub, it will be refilled by something, be it soapy or clean water.
As a contributor, well I'm main stream, I did around 12 good pages and 2 not so good. Most are given away to other members, it's not the ownership which is important actually. There are bigger and smaller contributors, but I have done my share, and will do more, but not likely to keep them for myself. That's one part of it.

In which I do not agree with you, is the other part, about the forums. The forums are what makes this a community. SP has thousands and thousands of members, (many one-timers and no-contributors) but the forums has not. It's even fewer than I have thought.
And this community, it means something.
It has given SP:ers friends from around the world, given people new climbing partners, it has broadened people's visions and tolerance of those who are not the same as themselves. It has let very experienced and newbies interact, and both have been given from each other.
And in the forums, the soul of Summitpost is expressed. To each in his own way, but the mix creates a sound of its own.

I think it's a major mistake to believe that the forums doesn't matter. It's the glue which holds the members together.
I have stickers saying SP, made by Biglost. Why would one want to carry one of those, if one doesn't want others to know you're an SP:er? And why would one want that, if not because this is a place with friends?

The pages, they are valuable, but it's not them which makes you want to PM another member and say "Hey you, I ...." It's after reading posts made by some other member, feeling kinship, or curiosity, or climbing-together urge, or whatever. (Or the last will maybe work for route pages... )

It always matters how people act towards another. In a small community like this, and with a mutual interest, it matters even more. My outburst was about mobbing, and it doesn't exactly encourage to friendly posting. And friendly, informative, social, inqusitive posting, that's the core of building up and strengthen a community.
I feel at the moment as we have a group within the group. There has always have been groups wihin groups, but the difference lies in that this is a hate group, which doesn't love the community and it's members, but the opposite. The goal is to destroy. And the only way to fight it, is to stand up against it. Express solidarity with the community, and the members of the community. It's important.
Only if you don't care for something, you let it drown without a fight.

And people, the members, the Summitposters, they are the ones to care about. Dead things doesn't matter as much as living. Not the other way around.

The Chief wrote:

FortMental wrote:I like the way you use a fish as scale when photographing your fly rod. I never would have thought of that....

That is cus you don't understand the way of the Fly Rod.

Rather, the Louisville Baseball Bat.....


I am out the door for another day of solitude at my very quiet local spot.

Hooked this pretty 18" bow yesterday...


Here...

Chief, Hot creek?

Also, that rainbow looks a little anorexic.

Quick question, sorry to sidetrack us from all these grand discussions that have never happened in the past. But how does the 'friend' tool work on the user control panel? I tried it out, and fail to see that it affected anything. What does it do?

FortMental wrote:You guys oughta start chatting up the scuba nerds on the other thread.... I can see all you wankers now: lugging up tanks, regulators, weights, and wet suits to 12,000 feet so you can dive unstocked tarns the size of my bathtub.... It'll be like big walls versus trad!

It's been done already, and it's a lot bigger than a bathtub.

Deleted this one myself.

It wasn't even close the to level of things others have insinuated or even said about folks such as myself, that have remained here for multiple days. Not important enought to worry about today.

The last few posts are dancing very close to needing to be scrubbed. Remember the locked thread in OR.

Lolli, just as you partially agree with me, I partially agree with you, so we probably agree something like 15-20%.

Like you, I have "met" many people here that I like through the forums. But the forums are not what brought me here, nor are they what keep me here (though they keep eating up time I could spend better). I have met several SPers in real life now, but only one as a result of contact through the forums. The rest I met because of mutual interest in my/their submissions; we recognized common interests and viewpoints. It's interesting that you mentioned Biglost; I spent time with him last year and would have this past summer had we not had a communication mixup (we probably drove right past each other ). Anyway, he like all the others but that one, I met through our submissions.

By the way, he stopped posting long ago, and it had nothing to do with the current "villains"; it had more to do with some of the "nice" people, actually, and some other things, but that's all I'll say.

My life would be a little poorer for not "knowing" Bryan Benn, for example, but "knowing" Bryan Benn has nothing to do (for me) with using/enjoying this site for its intended purposes (sorry, Bryan ). If the forums were pulled tomorrow, I would still use and enjoy this site and be in touch with my friends here through our submissions.

So I'm not trying to say you're wrong; I'm just giving you my perspective on why I disagree and why I see the forums the way I do. They can be fun and informative, but they are also, these days, the breeding ground for all the bitterness here. And it's not, contrary to what many say, just one group doing it. It never has been. The forums are a small part of the site but cause undue grief, and that also explains my negative outlook concerning them. The forums have been a headache for every elf, past and present, no matter what the personal ideology and style.

Good night, everyone. It was a crappy weekend because I let recent events weigh heavily on me, and since Sunday night, I have been making myself just close the laptop each night around this time and discover that there is a world beyond the screen in front of me. It has been nice.

Bob Sihler wrote:... and discover that there is a world beyond the screen in front of me. It has been nice.

You need to get out climbing again, young man! And NOT think about forums while you risk your life.



Biglost.. yes. I know already, and he's special...


And I agree on the group thing, as I wrote too, they have always been there. I guess it's too much to ask for, peace on earth, huh?
But I still refuse to see a community I belong to, as a place where I need to grow a thicker skin, in order to not be hurt.
Maybe it's the other way around, those who demand that, why not shed some of the outer layers instead?
Stop writing things which demands a thick skin, stop right before?

We get it. How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over?

You used to try to stir people up, get under their skin. Now you are just plain boring.

Gary Schenk wrote:

The Chief wrote:You might think of hanging up the climbing shoes, completely walk away from it for a while, get yourself a nice fly rod and reel, start tying your own flies and go find some "secret spots" where them trout will take very good care of you. Leave all the people and the worries that comes with all of em (as you described above) behind and get totally immersed with the act of the fly rod and the trout.

If you think you're having fun now, wait until you start fishing where they don't stock. It's more work to get to those spots, but worth the effort. You'll never fish for stockers again. It's like gym climbing versus trad.

I know Gary!

Have my secret "Golden" and "Hybrid Paiute Cut" Spots not more than an hour and half hike and/or drive from my house.

NancyHands wrote:Chief, Hot creek?

Nope.... about three miles west of Hot Creek, Mammoth Creek actually. No one hikes the north section of MC, the spot is always void of humans and there are some real bigass Bow and Brown Hogs in there.

Gary, I also have two real special locations just a half hour from the house where the Brookies (kinda Wild as they are not stocked nor have they been in these particular locations, since the late 40's) are big and real tough to catch. Gotta work em and are they ever beautiful.

Just got back from Hares Ears on the Upper O below the bridge. Had the place completely to myself and caught over 40 Bows, Brownies and L-Cuts in just over 4 hours. What a blast!
(That is my truck in the distance...)