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is it still climbing if you use a guidebook?

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is it still climbing if you use a guidebook?

Postby JHH60 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:15 am

The thread on using guides made me wonder - if you have a really detailed topo and route beta before you do a route, the kind which shows you where the bolts are, how many cams of which size, etc., are you cheating? Are you ethically obliged to acknowledge that you climbed the route with Supertopo? I know most people now expect to have a very detailed route description for established routes. While it's not exactly like climbing it with a guide, climbing with detailed route beta is a lot easier than doing a first ascent, or even with the beta they were used to in the old days.

E.g., here's the description of the original Keeler Needle route in Steve Roper's "Climbers Guide to the High Sierra" from 1976: "The face of Keeler Needle is rated V, 5.10, A3. The route lies in the obvious crack system just right of the Day-Keeler couloir. Most of the route goes free, and the climb has been done in a day". Compare to 4 pages of route description in McNamara's Supertopo "High Sierra Climbing".
Last edited by JHH60 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Diego Sahagún » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:17 am

Of course :!:
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Postby Luciano136 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:19 am

I would say so. The only difference is that climbing it without a guidebook might be harder but still a climb IMO.
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Postby The Chief » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:25 am

Is it still driving if you use a map or a GPS to get to your destination?
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Postby Luciano136 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:29 am

The Chief wrote:Is it still driving if you use a map or a GPS to get to your destination?


Exactly
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Postby JHH60 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:34 am

Well, in fact, driving with a GPS which talks to you and tells you when to turn is a lot easier than planning the route in advance with a map (and also more prone to making mistakes). But it's not a good analogy. In driving, getting from point A to point B is trivial, and the hard part is often routefinding. In climbing, getting from point A to point B is not trivial, and routefinding is a serious (though not always the hardest) part of the equation.
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Postby The Chief » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:40 am

JHH60 wrote: In climbing, getting from point A to point B is not trivial, and routefinding is a serious (though not always the hardest) part of the equation.


Depends on the route, the time of the year and it's location.

A multi-pitch trade route in the Red Rocks, The Valley or Tuolumne differ greatly than a multi-pitch route in bumfuck Antarctica or Alaska or....
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Postby JHH60 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:40 am

Luciano136 wrote:I would say so. The only difference is that climbing it without a guidebook might be harder but still a climb IMO.


Exactly. It's harder. The physical moves are the same (unless you get offroute, which is less likely with a good topo & beta), but you have to do a lot of the routefinding yourself. Which you don't have to do if you have a guide. So why aren't you ethically obliged to say "I climbed it with really detailed beta" when you are (according to another thread) ethically obliged to admit you did a climb with a guide? Where do you draw the line?
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Postby norco17 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:05 am

I think if someone says they climbed whitney via the mountaineers route or they climbed the cassin ridge route then they are admitting they used some type of beta or direction. If however they say I climbed denali or I climbed whatever and you say "what route?" then they will either say "we climbed the... route" or "we found out afterwards that we had climbed the....route."

Either way it can be difficult and is an accomplishment, but one is more impressive.
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Postby JHH60 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:42 am

Dingus Milktoast wrote:The line is drawn using the sharp end of the rope, same as it ever was.

DMT

ps. And you may ask yourself... how did I get here?


This is not my wife! This is not my automobile!

I personally agree that the real definition of doing a climb is whether you lead it (or at least did your share of leading), and if you go guided the presumption is that you didn't. But even in that case I think we'd agree that leading when there is really detailed beta is a lot easier than leading when there isn't, but nobody feels obliged to distinguish these when they check the climber's log.
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Postby Peak Freak » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:16 am

Letting the days go by....let the water hold me down :lol:
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Postby SpiderSavage » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:33 am

If you have any doubts, just go to the rock and climb what you see. Climb what looks fun and interesting. If you never look at the guidebook you may enjoy an experience similar to a first ascent.

Many climbers try to remember how to climb something. Climbing is best when done in the NOW.

It is okay for people to play numbers games with each other but that is not for me anymore.
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Postby Alpinisto » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:37 pm

Dingus Milktoast wrote:The line is drawn using the sharp end of the rope, same as it ever was.

DMT

ps. And you may ask yourself... how did I get here?


I wanna see pics of Dingus leading in his big white suit...

:shock:
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