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Postby ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:43 pm

Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.
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Postby butitsadryheat » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:14 pm

squishy wrote:
MarthaP wrote:
butitsadryheat wrote:I don't expect anything.

But then again, I never get off the trail, and I'm never further than 10 minutes from the parking lot at the trailhead. :lol:


TOURON! :lol:


He sounds like my girlfriend, no wonder you're a fattie butits...I need to take you "hiking"...


wasted humor/inside joke... :lol: and don't you mean we are fatties? :wink:

I hiked about 10 miles last weekend around Convict and McGee, and got of the trail several times to take pics of leaves and flowers and such, and I was at least 30 minutes from the car :lol:
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Postby rhyang » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:17 pm

So where's my Llama Hauler pic dude ? Don't you be holding out on me ! :lol:
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Postby The Chief » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:21 pm

ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


Ah Kris, take a look at all the AF, ANG, CG and Naval Air Station locations throughout CA and around the U.S.

Don't need to implement anything. Just do as the Swiss do, use the military as the prime SAR vehicle. They are already in place here in the U.S. and ready to respond. All that may have to be done is add an asset or two here and there. The Bone Yard is the first place to look.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:
Guyzo wrote:I consider having to be rescued as the ultimate humiliation as a climber.


BINGO.

DMT


The Best of the Best have had to have their asses Rescued. In most of those cases, they had no control over their situ (weather. avy's etc) and had they not gotten plucked off/out, they'd be dead! They are all very GRATEFUL that the folks came to save their asses btw.
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Postby ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:33 pm

If such a system could be implemented with current assets, meaning it is largely a matter of setting up communications and protocols it is pretty hard to argue against (and people do get into trouble requiring emergency medical transport in lots of ways other than hiking and climbing.)

I just don't want to trade freedom for some sense of security.

Would it be fair to say that what happenned in your Mt Langley scenario was a failure to function of the already existing system? You say the military crew was all spun up and ready to go when they saw your spot, but never got the call from some dispatcher?
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Postby jspeigl » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:48 pm

If we had SAR like the Swiss, I'd get lost just to have one of the those big dogs bring me a cask of brandy.
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Postby The Chief » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:56 pm

ksolem wrote:Would it be fair to say that what happenned in your Mt Langley scenario was a failure to function of the already existing system? You say the military crew was all spun up and ready to go when they saw your spot, but never got the call from some dispatcher?


Exactly Kris.

I think that Greg can pipe in later and verify that the channels/protocols currently in place have many variables(POC's/C of C) that are confusing at best.

My plan would make it so that any SAR agency that is called out, that does not have their own airborne assets, automatically/immediately gets the closets qualified military vehicle dispatched to assist. This would of course be dispatched via the current AFRCC system that is in place.
Last edited by The Chief on Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Guyzo » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:18 pm

Dingus Milktoast wrote:
The Chief wrote:
ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


Ah Kris, take a look at all the AF, ANG, CG and Naval Air Station locations throughout CA and around the U.S.

Don't need to implement anything. Just do as the Swiss do, use the military as the prime SAR vehicle. They are already in place here in the U.S. and ready to respond. All that may have to be done is add an asset or two here and there. The Bone Yard is the first place to look.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:
Guyzo wrote:I consider having to be rescued as the ultimate humiliation as a climber.


BINGO.

DMT


The Best of the Best have had to have their asses Rescued. In most of those cases, they had no control over their situ (weather. avy's etc) and had they not gotten plucked off/out, they'd be dead! They are all very GRATEFUL that the folks came to save their asses btw.


Don't misunderstand chief... I don't project this onto other climbers, at all.

Avoiding my own sense of failure is a great source of strength when shit hits the fan, which it has for me, several times.

That's all I meant, buddy.

DMT


Im with Dingus.

And Rick, I will be grateful for sure, if the time comes.

I think the whole deal with your last- fatal-deal... was a complete screw up by the authorties.

You did what you had to do, they fumbled the ball.

But back to the OP.

I think it's best to have zero expectations of a rescue, that way, you get prepared to handle anything.

Heck I remember when El Cap climbers would make a "Last will and Testament" before heading out. :wink:
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Postby The Chief » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:25 pm

Guyzo wrote:I think the whole deal with your last- fatal-deal... was a complete screw up by the authorties.

You did what you had to do, they fumbled the ball.

But back to the OP.

I think it's best to have zero expectations of a rescue, that way, you get prepared to handle anything.

Heck I remember when El Cap climbers would make a "Last will and Testament" before heading out. :wink:


That is why I am doing what I can to better simplify a system that is already in place to make it more efficient for all.

Oh yeah, then along came YOSAR. It was indeed created by those same folks that quickly realized the W & T gig wasn't too good of an idea after all.
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Postby Guyzo » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:03 pm

The Chief wrote:
Guyzo wrote:I think the whole deal with your last- fatal-deal... was a complete screw up by the authorties.

You did what you had to do, they fumbled the ball.

But back to the OP.

I think it's best to have zero expectations of a rescue, that way, you get prepared to handle anything.

Heck I remember when El Cap climbers would make a "Last will and Testament" before heading out. :wink:


That is why I am doing what I can to better simplify a system that is already in place to make it more efficient for all.

Oh yeah, then along came YOSAR. It was indeed created by those same folks that quickly realized the W & T gig wasn't too good of an idea after all.


I do remember hiking in the snow up to the top of the prow so we could get a line down to some friends who were stuck. We take of our own.

I think the whole concept of the "quick- n- ezy" rescue is flawed and temps folks to take chances, and cut corners.

One should: Suffer some, before that helo shows up, to build some character.
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Postby ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:36 pm

Lolli wrote:
ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


But Schweiz doesn't have Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Florida, etc
not much need for a SAR there, is it?


California alone = 10 Switzerlands, the Sierra Nevada Range is larger in area than the Swiss, French and Italian Alps combined.

One stretch of the Sierra extends for 200 miles without being traversed by any road.

I agree with The Chief that we should use our military assets for SAR when needed, so the effort to coodinate these assets with local needs is a start. But the scope of the effort in terms of the areas to be covered cannot be compared to a small country like Switzerland.
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Postby ShortTimer » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:36 pm

Lolli wrote:
ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


But Schweiz doesn't have Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Florida, etc
not much need for a SAR there, is it?


You would die of boredom or the weather in Kansas long before you would get in trouble from the terrain. Missouri has a couple largish rivers to contend with though...
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Postby ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:39 pm

Ever seen a full blown midwestern tornado :shock: :?:
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