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Feathered Dead Birds....

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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby rhyang » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:11 pm

kevin trieu wrote:
jschrock wrote:Just in case y'all missed it...this guy Dow climbs a lot. And real hard too. He even climbs real hard a lot. He's also a hard alpine climber who climbs all the time ... and hard.

Just in case you missed it...or didn't get the memo or something.


but isn't it my right as a hard climber that climbs a lot, and all the time to shit on people? it is my god given right, dammit!


Only if you have been banned by the local enviro club :mrgreen:
Taaaake !
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby welle » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:23 pm

MoapaPk wrote: But most of the climbers I see have a lot more money invested in their racks, versus their clothes. Dirt-baggers and nouveau riche both have similar goals about staying alive, and I doubt either group is inclined to scrimp on hardware.


Hot Henry Barber, a true hardman, still climbs on all passives. I've climbed on many partner's racks that still consist of rigid-stems and self-slung draws with old-fashioned ovals. If anyone here has seen 180 degrees South, they've probably noticed YC's old ice axe and crampons. I know Dow has got a shiny new rack and is expecting a new pair of Nomics. Why is it ok to have shiny hardware for the sake of chasing grades, but not softgoods?
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby bearbreeder » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:38 pm

if youve climbed on nomics vs those ole straight shafted leashed tools ... you know the reason

dont confuse yuppiness with functionality ...
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby blazin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:16 pm

Dow Williams wrote:There you go Welle, good post, I knew you could discuss the subject at hand versus worrying about how many homes I might own....dude, the post is about why some of you guys get conned into paying $600 for a jacket or $1000 for a bag that, in my (and many others opinion who spend a lot of time in the field testing clothing systems in harsh elements) do not serve you well. Some of you are mislead that you can buy a bag or jacket that will save your life (one such guy stated same in this thread!). Learning how to properly dig a snow cave might save your life, but not some $1000 bag over a $200 bag made of the same friggin material. For $600, I guess you think you are buying a bomber jacket....but as already pointed out, that does not do anything for you but make you sweat more. Sweat kills. Keeping dry should be your utmost concern. Agreed that if you are not climbing hard, but more or less going at a steady hiking rate, it is not as much of an issue. But as you progress to more technical routes....layering becomes that much more critical. And if you are climbing a lot, worrying about putting a hole in your $600 pants or jacket should be the furtherest thing from your mind. It is marketing. It is hype. It is branding. There are many great brands out there, but dird bird is not one of them in my opinion.....their proud logo wearing customers remind me of the same folks who use to pay twice as much for the same Landrover model that had the exact same engine in it than the lessor priced model. The lower priced model, everyone concurred, was so much more durable when put to the test in west Africa. Yes, I always express my opinions openly and without sugar coating......and never worry about who is insensitive enough to think they were shit on personally. Some love it, some loath it. It is no act.


Actually, Dow, as far as I can tell, your main gripe seems to be about people not knowing how to dress and layer appropriately in the mountains, not about the functionality of higher priced clothing. The usefulness of wearing a particular article of clothing at a particular time is quite different from debating whether between two articles of clothing--each serving more or less the same function--there is good reason to purchase a more expensive one. Yes, people need to learn dress right for the alpine. Sweat kills, wear layers; we all need to learn that, but each of our bodies respond differently to cold and exertion. A jacket or sleeping bag that may be too warm for you may be just right for someone else. Getting self-righteous about that seems pointless.

Now is it worth it to pay more to get, say, a windshirt from Patagonia or Arcteryx rather than from Walmart? It might be. For example, I find that Patagonia stuff just fits me much better than other major clothing manufacturers. I don't like baggy jackets, the extra fabric gets in the way, and thus I prefer Patagonia's athletic fit. Moreover I appreciate their corporate ethics. What about that chain of reasoning makes me a wanna be poser that could never climb hard? Nothing. The fact that I can afford more expensive clothing, although like everyone here I only buy from sales, does in fact mean that I work a job and am not a dirtbag. But since when are only dirtbags allowed to climb? Since when do only dirtbags climb hard? I admire people that have chosen climbing over career. I often wish I could do the same. But the fact that I'm a weekend warrior does not make me a superficial materialist scumbag. You seem to insist that there is inherent causal relationship between what you wear and your ability, perhaps even your worthiness, to climb. But you know what? That makes you as much of a prejudiced, superficial jerk as the guy who thinks that his $600 shell makes him a bad-ass alpinist. If you want us to believe you that gear has nothing to do with climbing ability, that logos don't matter, then stop looking at what everyone else is wearing and go climb. Your insistence on judging everyone by their appearance gives the impression of a deep insecurity or jealousy on your part. Shut up and go climb like the hardman you are. We'll respect you a lot more then.
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby John Duffield » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:39 pm

FortMental wrote:Nobody uses gear to failure anymore.


But it gets pretty close doesn't it? (Photo stolen from another Dow Thread)


Image
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby outofstep80 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:22 pm

I've definitely been on the other side of that. I refused to buy a nice rain jacket and got one off the bargin rack for 30 bucks or something. It was very light but very much not water proof. After 1 trip of being soaked through while being rained on for 2 hours I stepped up and bought a nice as rain jacket. Luckily my layers were good material and still held the heat. It's not fun being soaked when it's 50 degrees. I'll admit I'm a bit of a salley though. :oops:

Given, it's not a $600 rain jacket. I was pretty pissed at wasting the first 30 bucks. I think my new rain jacket was $110 or $120. Well worth the investment.
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby bearbreeder » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:34 pm

faster and lighter ...

most of this yuppie gear does not make you faster or lighter

example ... dead bird packs ... they dont weight any less than the competition, and frequently weight more ... some of them dont even have ice axe loops anymore ... it wont save you any weight

another example ... dead bird rain jackets ... the weight is the same or more as anyone elses ... yet they cost quite a bit more ... i got a 5 oz OR helium for cheap, the dead birdie stays at home ... it weights 1/4 as much ... will it last as long? ... well ill only put it on when its raining and in alpine i suspect if its really raining ill be descending

or how about them dead bird powershield softshells ... you know the ones that weight more than my belay jacket and you overheat in when carrying a pack on the way up .... a light fleece and windshirt is cheaper, lighter and more flexible ... or a weave softshell is more breathable and frequently cheaper

if you spend money to get ACTUAL performance and weight savings ... nothing wrong with that ... id buy a rocket tent in a heartbeat if i needed one

however if you buy something with a funky name that is functionally the same and weights the same as something you can buy at MEC/REI for half the price ... your choice, just don't pretend its any better or makes you any better

because some old geezer or hotshot kid who climbs better with in his $20 fleece will show you how wrong you are
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby A-Lex » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:12 pm

This thread is so ridiculous. I like the assumption that if someone bought a $600 jacket they must have thought it would make them climb harder.

Get a life and stop chastising others. "Ooh let's slam those dead bird wearers! Those guys are so wrong. I am so right. Damn I'm awesome. Sweet."

And for the record. Yes, I own Arc'teryx. Yes, I own OR gear. Yes, I own MEC gear. Yes, I own a WM sleeping bag. Yes, I own Columbia. Yes, I own many other brands. And no, I don't shop at Wal-Mart.

And why the heck can't anybody say Arc'teryx? WTF?
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Re: Feathered Dead Birds....

Postby John Duffield » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:26 pm

bearbreeder wrote:example ... dead bird packs ... they dont weight any less than the competition, and frequently weight more ... some of them dont even have ice axe loops anymore ... it wont save you any weight



I will say my beautiful Osprey (Live Bird?) 85 enables me to carry more shit a lot further and with greater comfort than my Boy Scout Yucca Bag with the home-built external frame.
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