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What's Legal and What's Not

Post general questions and discuss issues related to climbing.

Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby butitsadryheat » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:17 am

God forbid we deny money to the government.
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Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby lcarreau » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:47 am

The Government always gets your money one way or another. WHY EVEN ASK ???

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Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby oldandslow » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:50 am

The permit requirements are set forth in 36 cfr 251.
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Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby Klenke » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:17 pm

I know a guy who leads hiking trips for a Puget Sound city's parks and recreation department. He's been doing it for many years. He told me last year when I asked him about his job that the FS places restrictions on guided trips, which is essentially what he does as trip leader, in the Washington national forests. He told me the FS opens/allows only certain trails for guided use. He also told me that the Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest is less restrictive than the Gifford-Pinchot National Forest, that the number of places he can go and how often in the latter NF is quite limited.

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Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby Nitrox » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:57 am

mtnclimb wrote:Hello,
I would like to make everyone aware of what is legal guiding on forest service lands and what's not. There are many Meet-Up Groups popping up on the internet. These groups are for people to meet up for various activities of interest. One group that has caught my interest is a mountaineering group based out of the Sacramento area. There is one administrator who has been posting mountaineering activities on forest service land. In order to participate a membership fee is required, a fee is asked as a donation per day for each activity, and a waiver signed before participating.
Here's how it works with the forest service. Anytime a fee is required, or ask as a donation and a waiver is signed, a commercial permit is required from the forest service to offer these types of activities. That's why there are guide services. Guide services have commercial permits and the proper insurance that allows this type of guiding.
What about the Mazamas, the Mountaineers, Sierra Club trips, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts Groups, etc? These groups either already have a commercial permit or go through a guiding company that has the commercial permit.
What is legal? If you are part of a meet-up group and someone initiates a trip or activity and no money is exchanged and everyone meets at the location, then it's legal.
As soon as money is exchanged or a waiver is signed to participate, it becomes an issue.
Please call your local forest service office or park service office before participating in these types of events and make sure that they are legal.

Did you sign up just to complain about this person in Sacramento? Are you a guide?

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Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby Nitrox » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:25 am

MtnClimb, who do you guide for?

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Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby MoapaPk » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:50 am

The "donation" must be refundable and deemed insignificant for profit. The refund policy must be clearly stated. We've been through this issue with RRCNCA (which is BLM, not USFS).

Outside meetup: If an organization charges a yearly fee for membership, and the specific trips (e.g. rockcraft training) do not require a specific payment and are led by volunteers, there is no requirement for a guiding permit.
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Re: What's Legal and What's Not

Postby ExcitableBoy » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:16 pm

Thank you for that most excellent clarification.
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