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Re: Page preservation

Postby Buz Groshong » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:27 pm

mrchad9 wrote:
Scott wrote:
If every user had the ability to delete the comments on their own then surely you can see it would be abused and people would delete legitimate comments they don't like as well.


I don't recall it being a problem before. It was like that for several years.

Well then should we be allowed to delete votes from users if we choose? That would be very similar and not cause any problems would it?


This is no longer constructive criticism. Please try to be helpful or take the attitude it to Off Route. There are legitimate arguments to both sides of this question.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:41 pm

Scott wrote:
Well then should we be allowed to delete votes from users if we choose? That would be very similar and not cause any problems would it?


Not at all the same.

Perhaps an example of what I mean will help. Check out the comment board below:

http://www.summitpost.org/tabeguache-pe ... nts/150374

The access information on the page has completely changed, but the old owner (who was my friend) left SP a long time ago. Since access has changed, the page was outdated so I took over and have begun to rewrite it. All the old comments are no longer applicable. They aren't malicious, they just aren't revelent to anything (and all were posted 5-10 years ago).

This is just one of many examples (I could provide many, many more). I think it would be nice if the comments could be wiped clean, even though they aren't malicious. What useful purpose do they serve?

Scott- I agree those old comments no longer really provide any purpose, especially since the owner has changed, but also do not think it hurts anything for them to remain. Those aren't the sort I would ask the mods to delete, for example. I'd just leave them be. Doesn't really affect or hurt anything as is. No matter... the owners will never change anything anyway.

Buz- My last comment there was a real one... not a joke or any sarcasm. I see deleting comments from others as becoming analogous to deleting votes that aren't liked. Not in Scott's example above, but it would be by users who don't like certain comments on their pages or trip reports. You would understand if you put any effort into developing the site content... but you don't.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby Bob Sihler » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:08 pm

Speaking only for myself among the mods here, I would rather take the extra time deleting irrelevant comments than see people be able to delete comments they don't like. Here, I'm thinking of a number of controversial trip reports where comments provided information and perspectives that were sometimes unwelcome to the authors but which were illuminating and sometimes important for others.

I see your point, Scott, but I also see great potential for abuse that way. I'll again bring up that guy whose case you got on long ago. Had he not been deleted for his utterly false information that you and others called him on, he could have deleted all those comments under your proposed system, and that could have gotten people into real trouble if they tried using his pages.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby butitsadryheat » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:54 am

Chad wrote:Buz- My last comment there was a real one... not a joke or any sarcasm. I see deleting comments from others as becoming analogous to deleting votes that aren't liked. Not in Scott's example above, but it would be by users who don't like certain comments on their pages or trip reports. You would understand if you put any effort into developing the site content... but you don't.


:lol: ^^^spot on^^^

Bob wrote:Here, I'm thinking of a number of controversial trip reports where comments provided information and perspectives that were sometimes unwelcome to the authors but which were illuminating and sometimes important for others.


I can think of at least one where the entire TR was deleted to get rid of comments the author didn't like! :lol:

There is a reason that only moderators have that access to modifications to the site. If not, this'd be a wiki site. Boo.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby mvs » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:07 am

butitsadryheat wrote:There is a reason that only moderators have that access to modifications to the site. If not, this'd be a wiki site. Boo.


Really? The key complaint in this thread is that one individual (not a moderator) can pull anchoring content and all the attached content disappears. I've read amazing stories in summit logs, not everyone treats them as one sentence entries. That is a loss of valuable information at the whim of a non-moderator. The message to people is obviously that they shouldn't bother filling these in, or make robotic entries where it's no loss when they disappear because the page owner blows a gasket.

Secondly, if it was a wiki site, the content would be curated. That is, if you add it then it becomes community property and the community will be less erratic about deleting entire mountain ranges or 100 routes at once than the individuals we have here who suddenly become offended and blow away massive resources (undoubtedly taking grim pleasure in the outcry of dismay that follows). That actually makes me more excited to contribute because I know it's to an edifice that won't easily fall apart. But everyone tells me I'm wired wrong, because private property trumps all other values and personal initiative would dry up and disappear if the writer thought he was contributing to a shared effort in mountain history.

Note: my definition of the word contributing is different, because I think it implies that you give something, not that you use Summitpost's servers as a handy placeholder for your material until you get your panties in a wad over wrong opinions about militarism in 19th century Italy or the irresponsible use of snowmobiles.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby lcarreau » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:57 am

mvs wrote:
.... not that you use Summitpost's servers as a handy placeholder for your material until you get your panties in a wad over wrong opinions about militarism in 19th century Italy or the irresponsible use of snowmobiles.


Sorry, but I can't imagine the man packing up his "Whitey Tighties" just for something that happened that far back in history .

Now snowmobiles .... that's another matter! We don't have them in Arizona, but I'm certainly most glad of that fact.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby butitsadryheat » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:46 am

mvs wrote:
butitsadryheat wrote:There is a reason that only moderators have that access to modifications to the site. If not, this'd be a wiki site. Boo.


Really? The key complaint in this thread is that one individual (not a moderator) can pull anchoring content and all the attached content disappears. I've read amazing stories in summit logs, not everyone treats them as one sentence entries. That is a loss of valuable information at the whim of a non-moderator. The message to people is obviously that they shouldn't bother filling these in, or make robotic entries where it's no loss when they disappear because the page owner blows a gasket.

Secondly, if it was a wiki site, the content would be curated. That is, if you add it then it becomes community property and the community will be less erratic about deleting entire mountain ranges or 100 routes at once than the individuals we have here who suddenly become offended and blow away massive resources (undoubtedly taking grim pleasure in the outcry of dismay that follows). That actually makes me more excited to contribute because I know it's to an edifice that won't easily fall apart. But everyone tells me I'm wired wrong, because private property trumps all other values and personal initiative would dry up and disappear if the writer thought he was contributing to a shared effort in mountain history.

Note: my definition of the word contributing is different, because I think it implies that you give something, not that you use Summitpost's servers as a handy placeholder for your material until you get your panties in a wad over wrong opinions about militarism in 19th century Italy or the irresponsible use of snowmobiles.


I wasn't replying to the key complaint in this thread, but to the point about members being able to delete comments from their own contributions.

Perhaps my stance on wiki is closed, or ignorant, but on the face, I am not a fan
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Re: Page preservation

Postby Josh Lewis » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:26 am

mvs wrote:But everyone tells me I'm wired wrong, because private property trumps all other values and personal initiative would dry up and disappear if the writer thought he was contributing to a shared effort in mountain history.


Don't listen to those folks. I believe in community pages which is why I very much like what sites like Wikipedia have accomplished.
My Websites: Alpine Josh · Alpine Ascent · AceMaps
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Re: Page preservation

Postby mvs » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:05 pm

No problem butitsadryheat, I just have a different mental conception of what a wiki means than you and felt like speaking up about it.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby Buz Groshong » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:28 pm

mrchad9 wrote:
Scott wrote:
Well then should we be allowed to delete votes from users if we choose? That would be very similar and not cause any problems would it?


Not at all the same.

Perhaps an example of what I mean will help. Check out the comment board below:

http://www.summitpost.org/tabeguache-pe ... nts/150374

The access information on the page has completely changed, but the old owner (who was my friend) left SP a long time ago. Since access has changed, the page was outdated so I took over and have begun to rewrite it. All the old comments are no longer applicable. They aren't malicious, they just aren't revelent to anything (and all were posted 5-10 years ago).

This is just one of many examples (I could provide many, many more). I think it would be nice if the comments could be wiped clean, even though they aren't malicious. What useful purpose do they serve?

Scott- I agree those old comments no longer really provide any purpose, especially since the owner has changed, but also do not think it hurts anything for them to remain. Those aren't the sort I would ask the mods to delete, for example. I'd just leave them be. Doesn't really affect or hurt anything as is. No matter... the owners will never change anything anyway.

Buz- My last comment there was a real one... not a joke or any sarcasm. I see deleting comments from others as becoming analogous to deleting votes that aren't liked. Not in Scott's example above, but it would be by users who don't like certain comments on their pages or trip reports. You would understand if you put any effort into developing the site content... but you don't.


You stated "Well then should we be allowed to delete votes from users if we choose?" Certainly sounds like sarcasm to me. As I said there are valid arguments for both sides of the question on deleting comments. There is no reason to delete votes. If a page gets improved the voter can be asked to change their vote. If it is a spiteful vote, the elves can deal with it. Allowing page owners to delete votes is just asking for bad behavior. Comments are a slightly different question, but I do tend to agree with you that it shuold be left up to the elves.

As far as your assinine comment about how much I contribute...well, you know where you can stick it.
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Re: Page preservation

Postby mrchad9 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:46 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:Allowing page owners to delete votes is just asking for bad behavior.

Same with comments. It wasn't sarcasm. As I stated I do not think there is much difference. A vote can be out of date just the same as a comment can.

Buz Groshong wrote:As far as your assinine comment about how much I contribute...well, you know where you can stick it.

Buz try to be helpful or take your attitude to Off Route.
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