So far all of my hiking/climbing has been done solo but I'm looking ahead to some potential climbs where I will be part of a rope team. Obviously I will be taking a glacier skills/travel class in the near future but I'm totally green when it comes to the basics. I'd like to get a head start on learning some of the knots used in these situations.

I'm not looking to be able to rig up a pulley system and do crevasse rescue from this but some basic rope and knot knowledge would be good to have before I take a class. If anyone could point me in the direction of some good reading material and even the names of the knots themselves I can do the rest. Google is my friend.

For instance, the butterfly knot. Which is about all I know at this point. It will help get me ready and give me something to do over the long Wisconsin winter as there isn't much to actually climb here.

I'd start with getting a copy of Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills.

There's a ton of good information in that book about most aspects of climbing. The section on knots has pretty good diagrams. I used it to self-teach the water knot, as I tend to do very poorly when I watch someone demonstrate in person.

You can also just google any knot you're interested in and will find good diagrams, videos, etc. When I wanted to learn the Klemheist hitch, I found this site very helpful: http://www.animatedknots.com/klemheist/

The animated video is good, and you can watch it as often as you want and as long as you want. I imagine that site has similar pages for many other knots.

You don't need much for basic glacier travel.

* Figure-8 with follow-through and on a bight to tie in at the end or in the middle of a rope.

* Kiwi coil to manage excess rope so you don't trip on it.

* Prusik to ascend a rope. You could practice this at home if you have a rope, a harness, a couple of biners, and a couple of prussik loops or long slings.

I've found pretty good descriptions of these things online in the past, but unfortunately didn't bookmark them.

if you know the following you'll be in good shape.
of course, applying the knowledge is different, but at least you'll have the knot part:
prussik
clove hitch
girth hitch
water knot aka ring bend
double overhand
retied fig 8
fig 8 on a bight
munter
butterfly

that's really only 5 knots, just with variation (multiple girth hitches equals a prussik). if you learn those above, and when to use them, you will be set for nearly all situations.

edit, for basic glacier go with the retied 8, 8 on a night, butterfly, and prussik.
the rest is good but can wait.

seano wrote:or in the middle of a rope.

* Kiwi coil to manage excess rope so you don't trip on it.

Kiwi coil does not lend itself to glacier travel well.

ExcitableBoy wrote:

seano wrote:or in the middle of a rope.

* Kiwi coil to manage excess rope so you don't trip on it.

Kiwi coil does not lend itself to glacier travel well.

What do you prefer for shortening a rope?

seano wrote:

ExcitableBoy wrote:

seano wrote:or in the middle of a rope.

* Kiwi coil to manage excess rope so you don't trip on it.

Kiwi coil does not lend itself to glacier travel well.

What do you prefer for shortening a rope?

For glacier travel clip into a butterfly knot separated by 15-20 meters between climbers. The climbers on each end carry the tail in a mountaineers coil around a shoulder. In the case of a crevasse fall the tail end of the rope is used to construct a Z or Z x C hauling system. Kiwi coils are best used for shortening the rope when transitioning between belayed climbing and simu climbing on semi technical terrain.

What BOB said. Get Freedom of the Hills
And what pvnsher said +munter mule and bowline.

If you know these and how to apply them you can pretty much do anything with a load on a rope.

magic johnson wrote:

ExcitableBoy wrote:

seano wrote:

ExcitableBoy wrote:

seano wrote:or in the middle of a rope.

* Kiwi coil to manage excess rope so you don't trip on it.

Kiwi coil does not lend itself to glacier travel well.

What do you prefer for shortening a rope?

For glacier travel clip into a butterfly knot separated by 15-20 meters between climbers. The climbers on each end carry the tail in a mountaineers coil around a shoulder. In the case of a crevasse fall the tail end of the rope is used to construct a Z or Z x C hauling system. Kiwi coils are best used for shortening the rope when transitioning between belayed climbing and simu climbing on semi technical terrain.

Think you would be able to do this while trying to keep your buddy alive?

What kind of question is that? And I don't think so, I KNOW so from personal experience.

magic johnson wrote:nice way to risk your friends life. What if the anchor blows due to soft snow?

What are you talking about? As for soft snow, I have twice extracted climbers from crevasses in soft snow, once my own partner, once another team who was unroped and two members fell all the way to the bottom of a crevasse. One simply uses an anchor that is appropriate for the snow conditions. Do you not learn how to build proper anchors and hauling systems where you are from? I thought that was a universal skill for glacier travel.

magic johnson wrote:How do you dug a deadman while struggling to hold your buddie? Its hard enough getting a snow stake off your bag.

Be nice if it was that simple.

You seem woefully ignorant, so allow me to educate you:

#1 Travel in rope teams of 3 or 4.

#2 Tie butterfly knots in the rope between a two person climbing party. When a climber falls in a crevasse, the butterfly knot will jam in the lip and take the weight off the other climber.

I'm going to guess this magic johnson person is more into provoking an Internet Spray War than getting an answer to his questions. The questions he's lobbing are passive aggressive non sequiturs - it's kind of hard to have a discussion about proper techniques when the questioner keeps jumping around so much.

pvnisher wrote:edit, for basic glacier go with the retied 8, 8 on a night, butterfly, and prussik.
the rest is good but can wait.

Thank you. I think this is exactly what I was looking for. I'll get these down over morning coffee and then add big bulky gloves and practice some more. For now it's just the basics and I'll pick up on the when/how to use later on.

alright fair enough magic.

I think my confusion (and maybe EBs) regarding your questions, stems from your implication that basic two man and team crevasse rescue technique is somehow bordering on impossible or at least very unlikely.

It is not. But it absolutely DOES become sketchy and highly unlikely (and maybe impossible) if you are unfamiliar with how to utilize the tools and techniques that you should have at your disposal. Practice and refine.

Stopper knots, how and when to use them, how to haul when they are on the load line, and how to build an adequate anchor in variable snow conditions while holding your partner are all things that every climber should be well versed in. It's not rocket science or superhuman...but it's also not black magic.

edit: to the OP. Some good advice on this thread. You've gotten a few good recommendations already. Practice your tie in knots, study glacier movement and terrain assessment sections in the skills books of your choice, learn some friction hitches and play around with ascending a rope, study different ways to pre-rig your glacier rope setup (there are many), and just fiddle around with rope, cord, and any other gadgets you feel like trying. You've got a lot to study to while away the winter but the learning won't really start until you take a good course and get some hands on time in the real world. Have fun.